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Horus Manure: Debunking the Jesus/Horus Connection

Jesus Horus

Many atheists, neo-pagans, and other disbelievers of Christianity claim the story of Jesus Christ was borrowed from earlier mythologies. In recent years, a claim has been making the rounds that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god, Horus.

Who was Horus?
Horus is one of the oldest recorded deities in the ancient Egyptian religion. Often depicted as a falcon or a man with a falcon head, Horus was believed to be the god of the sun and of war. Initially he appeared as a local god, but over time the ancient Egyptians came to believe the reigning pharaoh was a manifestation of Horus (cf. Encyclopedia Britannica, “Horus”).

What about Jesus?
The skeptical claims being made about Jesus are not always the same. In some versions he was a persuasive teacher whose followers later attempted to deify him by adopting aspects of earlier god-figures, while in others he is merely an amalgamation of myths and never really existed at all. Both versions attempt to provide evidence that the Gospel accounts of the life of Christ are rip-offs.

In the 2008 documentary film Religulous (whose name is a combination of religion andridiculous), erstwhile comedian and political commentator Bill Maher confronts an unprepared Christian with this claim. Here is part of their interaction.
 

Bill Maher: But the Jesus story wasn’t original.
 
Christian man: How so?
 
Maher: Written in 1280 B.C., the Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus. Horus is the son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer who was later beheaded. Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert, healed the sick, the blind, cast out demons, and walked on water. He raised Asar from the dead. “Asar” translates to “Lazarus.” Oh, yeah, he also had twelve disciples. Yes, Horus was crucified first, and after three days, two women announced Horus, the savior of humanity, had been resurrected.

 
Bill MaherMaher is only repeating things that are and believed by many people today. Similar claims are made in movies such as Zeitgeist and Religulous and in pseudo-academic books such as Christ in Egypt: The Jesus-Horus Connection and Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth.

Often Christians are not prepared for this type of encounter, and some are even swayed by this line of argumentation.  Maher’s tirade provides a good summary of the claims, so let’s deconstruct it, one line at a time.

Written in 1280 BC, the Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus.
In fact, there are many “books of the dead.” But there is no single, official Book of the Dead. The books are collections of ancient Egyptian spells that were believed to help the deceased on their journey to the afterlife. The title Book of the Dead comes from an Arabic label referring to the fact that the books were mostly found with mummies (cf. The Oxford Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Funerary Literature”). Some of these texts contain vignettes depicting the god Horus, but they don’t tell us much about him.

Our information about Horus comes from a variety of archaeological sources. What we do know from the most recent scholarship on the subject is that there were many variations of the story, each of them popularized at different times and places throughout the 5,000-year span of ancient Egyptian history. Egyptologists recognize the possibility that these differences may have been understood as aspects or facets of the same divine persona, but they nevertheless refer to them as distinct Horus-gods (cf. The Oxford Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Horus”).

Part of the problem with the “Jesus is Horus” claim is that in order to find items that even partially fit the life story of Jesus, advocates of the view must cherry-pick bits of myth from different epochs of Egyptian history. This is possible today because modern archaeology has given us extensive knowledge of Egypt’s religious beliefs and how they changed over time, making it possible to cite one detail from this version of a story and another from that.

But the early Christians, even if they had wanted to base the Gospels on the Horus myths, would have had no way to do so. They might have known what was believed about Horus in the Egypt of their day, but they would have had no access to the endless variations of the stories that laid buried in the sands until archaeologists started digging them up in the 1800s.

Another part of the problem is that the claimed parallels between Jesus and Horus contain half-truths, distortions, and flat-out falsehoods. For example...

Horus is the son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother.
The mother of Horus was believed to be the goddess Isis. Her husband, the god Osiris, was killed by his enemy Seth, the god of the desert, and later dismembered. Isis managed to retrieve all of Osiris’s body parts except for his phallus, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by catfish. (I’m not making this up). Isis used her goddess powers to temporarily resurrect Osiris and fashion a golden phallus. She was then impregnated, and Horus was conceived. However this story may be classified, it is not a virgin birth.

He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer, who was later beheaded.
There is no character named Anup the Baptizer in ancient Egyptian mythology. This is the concoction of a 19th-century English poet and amateur Egyptologist by the name of Gerald Massey (see sidebar 2 below). Massey is the author of several books on the subject of Egyptology; however, professional Egyptologists have largely ignored his work. In fact, his writing is held in such low regard in archaeological circles that it is difficult to find references to him in reputable modern publications.

In the book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (Stellar House Publishing, 2009), author D. M. Murdoch, drawing heavily from Gerald Massey, identifies “Anup the Baptizer” as the Egyptian god Anubis. Murdoch then attempts to illustrate parallels between Anubis and John the Baptist.

Some evidence exists in Egyptian tomb paintings and sculptures to support the idea that a ritual washing was done during the coronation of Pharaohs, but it is always depicted as having been done by the gods. This indicates that it may have been understood as a spiritual event that likely never happened in reality (cf. Alan Gardiner, “The Baptism of Pharaoh,” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 36). This happened only to kings (if it happened to them at all), and one searches in vain to find depictions of Horus being ritually washed by Anubis.

Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert.
The companion guide to the film Zeitgeist outlines the basis for this claim by explaining, “As does Satan with Jesus, Set (aka Seth) attempts to kill Horus. Set is the ‘god of the desert’ who battles Horus, while Jesus is tempted in the desert by Satan” (p. 23).

Doing battle with the “god of the desert” is not the same as being tempted while alone in the desert; and according to the Gospel accounts, Satan did not attempt to kill Jesus there (cf. Matt. 4, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-13).

The relationship between Horus and Seth in the ancient Egyptian religion was quite different than the relationship between Jesus and Satan. While Seth and Horus were often at odds with each other, it was believed that their reconciliation was what allowed the pharaohs to rule over a unified country. It was believed that the pharaoh was a “Horus reconciled to Seth, or a gentleman in whom the spirit of disorder had been integrated” (The Oxford Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Seth”). In stark contrast, there is never any reconciliation between Jesus and Satan in Scripture.

Healed the sick, the blind, cast out demons, and walked on water.
The Metternich Stella, a monument from the 4th century B.C., tells a story in which Horus is poisoned by Seth and brought back to life by the god Thoth at the request of his mother, Isis. The ancient Egyptians used the spell described on this monument to cure people. It was believed that the spirit of Horus would dwell within the sick, and they would be cured the same way he was. This spiritual indwelling is a far cry from the physical healing ministry of Christ. Horus did not travel the countryside laying his hands on sick people and restoring them to health.

He raised Asar from the dead. “Asar” translates to “Lazarus.”
The name Osirus is a Greek transliteration of the Egyptian name Asar. As I mentioned earlier, Osirus is the father of Horus, and, according to the myth, he was killed by Seth and briefly brought back to life by Isis in order to conceive Horus.  It was not Horus who raised “Asar” from the dead. It was his mother.

The name Lazarus is actually derived from the Hebrew word Eleazar meaning “God has helped.” This name was common among the Jews of Jesus’ time. In fact, two figures in the New Testament bear this name (cf. John 11, Luke 16:19-31).

Oh, yeah, he also had twelve disciples.
Again, this claim finds its origin in the work of Gerald Massey (Ancient Egypt: The Light of the Worldbook 12), which points to a mural depicting “the twelve who reap the harvest.” But Horus does not appear in the mural.

In the various Horus myths, there are indications of the four “Sons of Horus,” or six semi-gods, who followed him, and at times there were various numbers of human followers, but they never add up to twelve. Only Massey arrives at this number, and he does so only by referencing the mural with no Horus on it.

Yes, Horus was crucified first.
In many of the books and on the websites that attempt to make this connection, it is often pointed out that there are several ancient depictions of Horus standing with his arms spread in cruciform.  One can only answer this with a heartfelt “So what?” A depiction of a person standing with his arms spread is not unusual, nor is it evidence that the story of a crucified savior predates that of Jesus Christ.

We do have extensive evidence from extra-biblical sources that the Romans around the time of Christ practiced crucifixion as a form of capital punishment. Not only that, but we have in the Bible actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion. On the other hand, there is no historical evidence at all to suggest that the ancient Egyptians made use of this type of punishment.

And after three days, two women announced Horus, the savior of humanity, had been resurrected.
As I explained before, the story of the child Horus dying and being brought back to life is described on the Metternich Stella, which in no way resembles the sacrificial death of Jesus. Christ did not die as a child, only to be brought back to life because his grieving mother went to the animal-headed god of magic.

The mythology surrounding Horus is closely tied with the pharaohs, because they were believed to be Horus in life and Osirus in death. With the succession of pharaohs over the centuries came new variations on the myth. Sometimes Horus was believed to be the god of the sky, and at other times he was believed to be the god of war, at other times both; but he was never described as a “savior of humanity.”

Combating the never-ending list of parallels
If you do an Internet search on this subject, you will come across lists of supposed parallels between Jesus and Horus that are much longer than Bill Maher’s filmic litany. What they all have in common is that they do not cite their sources.

Should you encounter people who try to challenge you with these claims, ask them to explain where it is they got their information. Many times you will find that they originate with Gerald Massey or one of his contemporaries. Sometimes they have been repeated and expanded on by others. But these claims have little or no connection to the facts.

You should challenge the person making the claim to produce a primary source or a statement from a scholarly secondary source that has a footnote that can be checked. Then make sure the sources being quoted come from scholars with a Ph.D. in a relevant field, such as a person who teaches Egyptology at the university level.

Due to the mass of misinformation on the Internet and in print on this subject, it is important to respond to these claims using credible sources. Fortunately, there are many good books on Egypt and Egyptology in print. But there are also bad ones, so make sure to verify the author’s credentials before purchasing them.

The study of ancient Egypt has come a long way since its beginning in the 1800s, and new discoveries are being made even today that improve upon our understanding of the subject. It’s safe to say they will do nothing to bolster the alleged Jesus-Horus connection.

The Horus mythology developed over a period of 5,000 years, and as a result it can be a complex subject to tackle. But you don’t have to be an Egyptologist to answer all of these claims. You just need to know where to look for the answers—and to be aware of the claims’ flawed sources.
 


 
Appendix 1:
A brief history of modern Egyptology

Rosetta StoneModern Egyptology really begins with the French campaign in Egypt and Syria initiated by Napoleon Bonaparte around 1798. Among other things, the French established a scientific exploration of the region.

In 1799, a soldier named Pierre-Francois Bouchard discovered the Rosetta Stone, which contained a bilingual text that eventually led to the translation of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Prior to this, our knowledge of ancient Egypt’s 5,000-year history was limited to what was known through the writings of pre-Christian Greek historians such as Herodotus and Strabo.

The discovery of the Rosetta Stone led to a renewed interest by the Europeans in all things ancient Egypt, commonly referred to now as “Egyptomania.”  It was not until nearly a century later that Egyptology as an academic discipline began to come into its own. Since that time, we have a much better understanding of ancient Egyptian history and culture.

Appendix 2:
Massey scholarship

Gerald MasseyWhen researching the supposed Egyptian influences on Christianity, inevitably one comes across the name Gerald Massey. Massey was an English poet and amateur Egyptologist who lived from 1828 to 1907. He is the author of three books on the subject: The Book of the BeginningsThe Natural Genesis, and Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World. Because his books represent some of the earliest attempts to draw comparisons between the Christian and Egyptian religions, other writers attempting to draw these comparisons frequently cite them.

One recent example is the book Christ in Egypt; The Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M. Murdoch. In it the author states: “This present analysis of the claims regarding the correspondences between the Egyptian and Christian religions is not dependent on Massey’s work for the most part,” yet she devotes an entire chapter of the book to defending the authenticity of Massey’s scholarship (something she does not feel called to do for anyone else she quotes in her book) and thereafter adopting many of the same comparisons.

Critics of Massey’s work often point out that he had no formal education in the area of Egyptology. While this is a valid criticism, I think it is also important to point out that the study of ancient Egyptian religion has advanced far beyond what was known in the 19th century. Not only is much of Massey’s scholarship built on wild speculation, it is also the product of an academic discipline still in its infancy.
 
 
Originally published in the Nov-Dec 2012 issue of Catholic Answers Magazine. Used with author's permission.
(Image credit: Wikimedia)

Jon Sorensen

Written by

Jon Sorensen is the Director of Marketing for Catholic Answers, the largest lay-run apostolate of Catholic apologetics and evangelization in the United States. He earned his bachelor’s degree in 3D Animation and Visual Communications in 2004 from Platt College, Ontario. Before coming to Catholic Answers, he worked in the automotive industry producing television commercials and corporate video. He has also produced motion graphics for several feature-length films. Follow Jon through his website, JonSorenson.net.

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  • stanz2reason

    While I agree that to say the Jesus myth was copied directly from other myths is an unfair statement to make, suggesting that there might have been influences along with way based on pre-existing myths common to that part of the world is still a fair point to make.

    • stanz, do similarities necessarily imply one influence the other?

      Also, as G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien have noted, if the Jesus accounts are true and a divine Storyteller pre-planned Jesus life, death, and Resurrection since the beginning of time, then wouldn't we expect him to foreshadow this climactic event throughout human history, just as we see human directors do throughout any well-designed film?

      • stanz2reason

        Necessarily, no they do not. It is up to the individual to decide if the similarities between the Horus myths (and Dionysus in the greek tradition) and the Jesus myths and a reasonable opportunity for this overlap to occur might be suspicious enough. For instance I'd have a tough time buying overlap amongst the Native American traditions... though I might want to check with the mormons first. For me it's suspicious but unclear, certainly moreso than Maher and others assert.

        I'd think that any story with Chekov's gun wouldn't be much of a story if it weren't fired. We'd have been disappointed if Harry Potter didn't face Voldemort in the climax, nor Ahab faced Moby Dick. None of this speaks to accuracy or removes a reasonable doubt that elements of the story were likely fabricated to fit a specific narrative that might not have been an accurate re-telling of things that actually happened.

        • cestusdei

          The individual decides? How about the objective truth decides? There is no evidence for a Horus and Jesus connection. That's a fact. Atheists need to come up with some new stuff.

          • stanz2reason

            Weakest... criticism... ever. Where's you're objective truth for anything at all related to Christs existence? In fact, insert any supernatural claim (or any claim really) you've ever heard here and tell me where your objective truth is.

            There is no objective truth for matters after they occur. These exists only varying levels of evidence in the form of physical evidence, eye-witness testimony, and in modern times various methods of recording events. Such evidence is used to make a case for a claim, and it is up to the judgement of those listening to determine how supported the claim is by evidence and ultimately how compelled they are to buy the claim.

            Were you to present the christ myth along-side other myths of the time, you might note enough commonalities between the two to raise suspicions. There is a reasonable case to be made in suggesting a bit of overlapping influence one way or the other.

            It's silly to say that it's a fact that there isn't evidence for a connection. You have 2 myths with more than superficial similarities which existed in the same part of the world around the same time. That is what we call 'evidence'. Whether you buy the claim that there's cross-over is a different matter. Personally I feel there is enough evidence to be suspicious, but not enough to say definitively. Of course I've already said this.

            Why would atheists need to come up with new stuff when so much of the old stuff works just fine?

          • cestusdei

            I assume you believe that Alexander the Great existed. Prove it. Did you ever see him? How about the US Civil War? It's all a conspiracy and never happened. All the evidence is manufactured. No one lives that way. All of us trust that there was an Alexander and a Civil War. No one seriously denies that there was a Jesus, regardless of what they believe about him. The whole point of the article is that objectively there is no truth that some early Jewish Christians decided to make up stories about Jesus so that he would be like Horus. That is simply ridiculous. It's like arguing that the Aztecs learned to make pyramids from the Egyptians. The only reason the "old stuff" appeals is because most don't do the homework necessary to debunk it. It is intellectual laziness. However, it doesn't work on the informed Christians.

          • stanz2reason

            You're making little sense and misusing the concept of objectivity. Having not met Alexander the Great I can not objectively say that he existed, which is of course different from saying I believe he existed. Having not witnessed the Civil War I can not objectively say that it happened, which of course is different from saying I believe it happened. In addition, even if I had witnessed such people and events, once the description of those events leaves my mouth, it's hearsay and is no longer objective, even if it's accurate. I could even go further and hold myself up to some impossible Humeian standard of knowledge, but that's counter-productive. What we have is evidence of existence and each make reasonable judgements to the reliability of the evidence. With the case of something like the Civil War, the evidence is overwhelming for it having occurred in the manner it's generally described. With biblical claims, the evidence is less clear, except of course with supernatural claims which can and should be dismissed immediately due to their hocus pocus magical nature.

            That a person or persons existed around the same time who shared some similarities with the character of the mythical jesus of the bible, the evidence seems acceptably strong enough to make that claim. That this mythical character was the son of god in some real way and performed supernatural acts in the real non-ficticious world is an entirely different matter. People of various levels of seriousness deny entirely any and all such supernatural acts occurred and with good reason. I believe that Alexander the Great was a real person in some sense. I don't believe that the real Alexander the Great could fly or had x-ray vision.

            That supernatural elements from other sources might have been incorporated is a reasonable possibility. It's possible due to the geography and the time period. When considering how people tell any stories and the near universal phenomena that elements of previous stories are incorporated, even subconsciously, into new ones it even seems likely. Some of the similarities are suspicious enough to warrant a closer look, though for the third and final time I've yet to see smoking gun evidence to support such claims in a definitive way.

            I'm curious and would be amused to hear which atheist claims have been debunked by informed christians.

          • cestusdei

            So now you can't believe anyone existed unless you personally saw him. Nor can you believe in any historical event. It is all subjective experience for you. A bit like the fundamentalists who claim that God created dinosaur bones to fool atheists and that the world is only 6000 years old. You are just like them. Yet because this "evidence" which the article debunks is congenial to your personal view you are willing to suspend your disbelief. Very convenient.

            How about, "I won't believe this stuff because I have not seen with my eyes the apostles meeting together and discussing ancient Egyptian gods from various dynasties and how to integrate that paganism into their view of Jesus." There is no evidence for that at all, as the article points out. How quickly atheists drop their pretense of objectivity when it suits them.

          • stanz2reason

            So now you can't believe anyone existed unless you personally saw him.

            Again... READ what I wrote. I can not OBJECTIVELY say such things, though this says nothing to what I BELIEVE . I consider the evidence, it's potential reliability, it's consistency with other observations and make a judgement to it's validity.

            Nothing else you had to say is worth responding to.

          • cestusdei

            In other words you can't respond as you are backed into a corner. Fundamentalists are the same including the atheist ones.

          • stanz2reason

            I'm afraid I couldn't have been more clear when I said nothing you said was worth replying to. I'm backed into indifference in explaining myself to someone who clearly hasn't done me the courtesy of reading what I've already said nor have I any interest in giving any more time addressing such poor arguments that they are self-refuting.

          • cestusdei

            In other words you can't respond so you are taking your ball and going home. That happens a lot when I defeat atheists in an argument. Cheers.

          • stanz2reason

            You're correct. We're allergic to poorly made incoherent arguments that are devoid of intellect and puerile in nature. Some people will insist the world is round and feel vindicated when reasonable people shrug their shoulders and refuse to further dignify such doltishness. Congrats, you're one of those sad few.

          • cestusdei

            No, you are not used to finding that logic and reason are not your natural allies. You think all religious people are stupid, which I guess includes Bach, Beethoven, Pasteur, and so many others. When you compose another 9th symphony let me know. Btw, the man who discovered the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest.

          • marcus

            You clearly dont have a lot of horsepower between the ears. The people you mention did not have our resources. They did the best they could with the limited information and communication they had. Whats your excuse? Look up the word fallacy then get familiar with modus ponens, and modus tollens. Those are generalized math rules designed to be easy for less intelligible to understand and apply in their arguments.

          • PeterPan4

            Wow - so basically as a "critical thinker" you admit that you can be sure of nothing but only have some subjective feeling of what is more likely than something else? Who is to be the judge of that? You?

            If you do some academic research into textual analysis, rather than getting your facts from your circle of atheist friends, you would find the it hard to claim the events in the Bible didn't happen. Of course you could try and interpret them as you wish. Christian tradition is far more influenced by the Greek philosophy than some Egyptian myth. Such claim just weaken your position. No serious academic has come forward to support them.

            A common arrogance amongst "critical thinkers", besides misusing logic, these days is to reconcile the fact that important historical and present day people believe in God, is to claim they had limited information and knowledge. (Basically weren't as smart as us). Of course they would be on your side if they were alive today or just got a little bit of re-education right? Very scientific. Very "modens ponens" wouldn't you say?

            Go back to your critical-thinking 101 guide and try again please.

          • Patrick McCoy

            Thank you so much. That person was using so many logical fallacies and then evoking logic was just breaking my mind, but fortunately you very succinctly shut him down, saving me a lot of time and effort. Kudos.

          • Pax Humana

            Was it the Atheist or the Christian that was doing so?

          • Kaseem Smith

            You are talking about someone's critical thinking when you believe that: A. Noah's ark fit thousands of animals for 8 months with no way to store food or use the bathroom and the tigers didnt eat the gazelle. B. Jonah stayed in the dark in a whale's stomach full of acid without air for three days. C. Jesus died and rose from the dead but he isnt walking around today unless of course he had to die AGAIN.D. Cain killed Abel and though there were no other people on Earth somehow Cain managed to find a wife in the land of Nod. SMH. But you say the bible is accurate? Which bible? I went to Barnes & Noble recently and found a whole section of DIFFERENT bibles. Lets not forget that mythical Adam and Eve lived 6000 years ago but Earth is billions of years old and by the way a 4 million year old female was found in Ethiopia. The bottom line is no one copies a story exactly. However, people do re-write stories to their benefit. You know like the bible verse that says "slaves obey your earthly master." Or the one that says 666 is the mark of the beast and it is a man. Yeah 666 is 6 electrons, 6 protons, and 6 nuetrons which is exactly what the melanin in my dark skin is made of. Your bible calls the black man "the beast." These are facts and they are indisputable.

          • The Saint

            Save it Kaseem, in their profound delusion they will reply with inane conjecture which can't even be supported by the bible.
            You want to watch them squirm?, ask them how Noah got the marsupials out of Australia, or the Polar bears and grizzly from North America, or the 4 different species of penguins which live only in the Anartic; not to mention the 20, 000 species of bees, just to mention a few.

          • Michael Occhipinti

            Wow, the amount of cluelessness in your statements rob them of any point you are trying to make.. where do I start? Cain and Abel lived for over 100 years according to the Bible before Able bit it, by that time Adam and Eve were still spitting them out, plenty of time to make new people.. of course it was still incest, but the gene pool would have been relatively 'pure' then, getting less so as the generations passed. Nobody with a clue thinks the earth is 6000 yrs old, and the 'Seven Days' alluded to in Genesis were God days, Aeons. The Bible also mentions a Lilith made Eve, but I forget if she bore children before she spoke the ineffable name of God and turned into a powerful demon and flew away. The book Genesis itself is CLEARLY an ALLEGORY as is much of the bible, and it has at least three levels of meaning encoded into it, and the way its encoded is truly mindboggling.

          • Pax Humana

            Wow, another moron...you are just as bad as the Atheists.

          • Mandla Vilakazi

            What you fail to understand is that before you can even argue the story of Noah, you need to have at the least acknowledged or at the most accepted the premise of the biblical God's existence. Which would make your present arguments invalid, for failure to account for divinity and how that would effect your question. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, THE BIBLE IS NOT REFERING TO THE AFRICAN SLAVES ABDUCTED FROM AFRICA TO AMERICA and other parts of the world, at that time frame. This is a while before then. A while before even Islam existed and enslaved African people and all what was theirs; which was before the Europeans did it. In fact, the kind of slavery being referred to would be a foreign concept of family to you. I'm not saying it was good, but it's not what you're making it up to be. As for your ridiculous 666 theory, it's sad, just leave it to the wise to decipher; as the Bible suggests. You have a very strong ideology, but it's also a foolish ideology that isn't actually yours. Site something, anything? Ask your teachers for help, even. You have been misled, my brother. I don't mean to be rude or harsh, but this kind of mindless evil must stop. You don't even know that the Bible is actually made up of people of your skin colour!

          • Pax Humana

            Let us also not forget that people of all different skin, hair, and eye colors were slaves, as well as were slave owners/masters/mistresses/drivers/traders as well, not just in the colonial times in the Americas, but also preceding them, and ditto for all of the other parts of the world.

          • Pax Humana

            Ah, another dimwitted Atheist troll...please do come up with something new for an argument, okay?

          • Kaseem Smith

            Dimwitted? I m not the one running around here waiting for someone to save me. I am also not the one that believes that a man can live in a whale for three days without food, water, or air. Not to mention the fact that none of the biblical characters bodies have ever been found. LOL!!!!!! What a clown!!!

          • Pax Humana

            Ironically says the refugee from the circus that is you, but please tell me what did Atheism and its related ilk do to the world other than steal the credit from other people, commit vast amounts of fraudulent and deceptive practices, conventional theft, grand larceny, extortion, war crimes, bribery, graft, racketeering, ironically violate its own false interpretation of "separation of church and state" by trying to become a de facto church, as is stated in American Humanist Association v. United States? Oh, and by the way, at least I do something with my life other than be a moron with no life, no goals and no ambitions other than to become a bully, a tyrant, and a control freak that loves to deflect their poor personality and life choices on to other people. I also do not have to be called a "useful (useless) idiot," unlike yourself, you Satanic troll.

          • Pax Humana

            I can keep up the arguments for DAYS with you, and I also could be destroying you and your Atheist friends to such a vast extent in said arguments that a Thanos snap would seem like a blessing in comparison to what would happen to you, to say nothing of a black hole. Do you and the fellow members of the Useless Idiot Brigade want to try your luck with me? Every Atheist website that uses Disqus blanket banned me from them and even the Atheist trolls on Reddit, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and the Chans knows better to start a fight with me, so, please, try to make me into a punching bag, only to hear the phrase "お前はもう死んでいる('Omae wa mō shinde iru,' or 'You are already dead')" as you learn that you tried to murder the wrong individual in your lives...I dare you.

          • Pax Humana

            Do you want YOUR body to be found, Bozo? Keep talking and see what happens.

          • J Ayon

            Though I agree with mostly everything you said up to this comment, I found hard to believe 666 was melanin, because 6 protons 6 neutrons and 6 electrons is just Carbon (C). But everything else you said I support and agree. I've gave up trying to prove a point to religious ppl a long time ago...

          • Kaseem Smith

            I guess Noah had a 500,000 square foot GE refrigerator, Jonah had a deep sea capsule to live in and the lions and gazelle played cards in the corner to pass time. LOL!!!!! By the way if jesus rose why isnt he walking around? Or is it that his SPIRIT rose just like every one else's. Lol

          • The Saint

            yay clearly demonstrates why debating with some christians is like trying to play chess with a pigeon; they knock all the pieces over, crap all over the place and prance around like they have won. Kaseem

          • Pax Humana

            I guess that you are a "useful (useless) idiot" like your boy Stalin said?

          • The Saint

            There is no evidence whosoever to prove the fantastic events of the bible.
            My ' circle of atheist friends' is normally better educated thanvyour narrowminded friends; this includes more knowledgeable about your religion.
            If you were a critical, rational thinker you would not believe in god, any of the many gods.

          • Pax Humana

            Atheism and its related ilk are ironically the most narrow minded people upon the planet. Do you all enjoy being a pseudo-intellectual circle jerk?

          • Randy Keime

            is that last line pro or con for your fantasy

          • cestusdei

            You are the one who prefers fantasy to reality.

          • calledit78

            The big bang theory was based of Albert Einstein & De Sitter's work. Einstein did not believe in God but in Agnosticism which means thinking with human reason.

          • cestusdei

            You just don't want to admit that it was a Jesuit who gave us the theory, which at first Einstein denied. So there is one falsehood you give us right there. Why do atheists always think all Christians are fundamentalists? I'm a Catholic. You don't even address what I believe. As for aliens, I guess you have your imaginary friends.

          • calledit78

            Einstein did not deny it, he said that there wasn't enough proof to make a conclusion, so many Christians claim he believed in God and he didn't he believed in human reason. Go look it up. Einstein started the theory of big bang theory and well he is dead now. Go figure a Roman Priest got involved to keep the con going why? The Roman Catholic church is worth $10-15 Billion dollars and they got to protect their fortune at any cost. Why don't they give all that money away to help the world cause with out it they got no influence or power.

          • cestusdei

            Which is denying it.

            In fact it was a priest who discovered the theory. Go look it up.

            I fail to see how a Jesuit physicist's discovery somehow protects the Church's property. I don't see where we made any money from it. Logic is not your forte obviously. Changing topics is a typical atheist tactic. The Church in fact gives a great deal of money away and is the largest NGO charity int he world. Atheists on the other hand do little but create havoc. I suggest you immigrate to North Korea a fine example of atheism in action.

          • The Saint

            Actually 10-15 B$ is a very conservative figure, Calledit; they have artwork, relics, gold and jewel-incrusted artifacts that are worth that much on their own; not to mention the prime real estate they own worldwide, and it is all tax-free.

          • The Saint

            A Jesuit contradicts the god? Not a very good Jesuit was it?

          • Pax Humana

            Catholicism is every bit as Satanic as Atheism and its related ilk.

          • Doug Shaver

            Agnosticism which means thinking with human reason.

            Which dictionary did you find that in?

          • The Saint

            Well stated Calledit, or tell them how the device they are using to post their (inane) thoughts, which can be viewed instantly and globally, work on scientific theories. I would like to see them try this with prayer.

          • Pax Humana

            Thinking and human reasoning are oxymorons and those people that think otherwise are morons.

          • Randy Keime

            only record of jesus is bible. many civilizations and census's say alexander existed as for civil war much of my family, when I was young remembered it! Dont let facts and common sense affect your believes. A younger naive me once taught sunday school, I have put in my time

          • cestusdei

            Yawn, the usual talking points. The only record of Alexander the Great come from ancient documents, so there is no evidence he existed. But if someone claimed that you would dismiss them the way I dismiss you. Think for yourself and don't just parrot the usual atheist tripe.

          • calledit78

            The fact is that Jesus was suppose to be an Arab but yet Christianity makes him white to better influence you is just the beginning of the Church's lies.

          • David Nickol

            Jesus was suppose to be an Arab

            What does that mean? Are you saying Jesus was an Arab? What is the evidence for that? It is not clear to me what it would even mean. Are you denying Jesus was a Jew?

          • Perfect Timing

            Jesus was born in Bethlehem which is in modern day Palenstine..

            Mesopotamia where the Garden of Eden was said to be is Modern day IRAQ

            that is clearly Arab culture and many of the customs were Arabic.

            Yes Mary fled from Nazareth which is located in Galilee which is in Israel,

            But being Israeli or an Israelite does Not make you Jewish since there were many of these tribes/nationality that didn't practice Judaism

          • The Saint

            You are making 'goofy' conjecture; read Matt. 1:1, it lists the lineage of Jesus from Abraham to other patriarchs (Jesus calls himself "son of David).
            Jesus was 100% Jewish.

          • The Saint

            Jesus visited the synagogues on the Sabbath: (Mark 3 - Luke 13).
            He also taught at the synagogues (Matt.21:23).
            Jesus told his disciples that they should obey the teachers of the law: (Matt. 23: 1-3).
            Jesus was circumcised; according to the law of Moses, and as the 'first born,' he was consecrated: (Luke 2:21 - 24).
            Jesus observed all the Jewish holy days: (John 7:2; 7:14 and John 7:24).

          • Doug Shaver

            Jesus was suppose to be an Arab

            Who says so, and why should I believe them?

          • cestusdei

            Jesus was Jewish not Arab. You are the one who is lying.

          • calledit78

            Jewish is just a religion not a race. So no I am not lying.

          • cestusdei

            Jesus was not Arab, so yes you are lying. Jews in Jesus time did constitute a distinct racial group. I know history. You do not. Like most atheists you don't bother to check out the other side.

          • Perfect Timing

            Race is not a real thing.. it's a social construct that was created in the 17th century..

            The Bible never mentions race or refers to any one by race..

            Only

            - Tribe
            - nationality
            - ethnicity

            People are never referred to as black or white in the Bible because it isn't a real thing and humans all share the same 8 blood types. Not to mention people of that time would've appeared different from modern day combinations of mankind.

          • Perfect Timing

            Jesus was born of Hebrew parents but he didn't necessarily follow the Old Testament which is the Torah. His teachings and life are what became the New Testament and was considered blasphemous to the hard line Rabbis following traditional Judaism.

            The abrahamic origins predate both since as we all know Noah, Abraham, and many before spoke directly to god but didn't necessarily practice any specific religion.

            To be a Christian is spirituality not religion.. The disciples were followers of Christ. To follow the ways of Christ and receive the Holy Spirit is what being a Christian is about. Learning what was, what is and what will be is to study the Bible and live by the word of god.

          • The Saint

            You need to actually read your bible before you make goofy comments; Jesus was a Jew who followed Jewish customs.

          • The Saint

            The whole religion is based on lies and deception, Calledit.
            Here is a concept debunked and which will keep so-called christians up for weeks.
            Traditionally all followers of the religion are taught that the original couple were exiled from Eden for eating the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil; but if you read Gen. 3:22 - 24, it tells a different story. It states they were exiled to keep them from the 'other forbidden fruit,' the tree of life.
            Which brings us to another ruse; the god moved the goal posts in the middle of the game.
            The god told them that it they ate of the fruit of knowledge, they would die that day, they didn't (and not, to the god one day is not a thousand years); so instead, the god cursed man, woman, soil and snakes; this was not part of the deal.
            So preachers, pastors and other charlatans have been teaching a lie.
            From the outset, the bible is full of errors, contradictions, and absurdities, but maybe all those land bridges helped the original couple.*

          • Pax Humana

            So are Atheism and its related ilk, and they are rife of MANY more errors than anything else, but please, keep reminding humanity of why the human gene pool needs chlorine from time to time, you dimwitted Atheist trolls.

          • Pax Humana

            Ironically says the liar that is yourself, as YAHASHUA HA'MASHIACH was Hebrew, if anything. However, He purposely kept His Appearance out of the Holy Scriptures because it was kind of like what would be called the Superman effect, is that He made Himself not be recognized by anyone but those that He trusted to preach the Gospel, just like Superman made himself unrecognizable from Clark Kent.

          • The Saint

            No one prays to Alexander cestus, so try other tripe.

          • calledit78

            Historians and archeologists have found to many records in multiple sources ranging from Roman to what is India now.

          • Pax Humana

            Ah, another dimwitted Atheist troll...yawn. Please get some new material, okay?

          • James Fretwell

            Wrong! Why dont you go and check out personal writings of the roman prefect of judia pontius pilate.

          • Mandla Vilakazi

            Tricky and clever word-play, but no substance. You say nothing. So you cannot objectively say Alexandra existed, because you were not there? What do you think objectively means? How do you believe historical accounts are authenticated? Subjectively? And what speaks to what you believe? Sound, objective evidence, albeit circumstantial; I dare hope? You claim to consider evidence, it's potential reliability, it's consistency... That doesn't sound objective to you? Even when you weren't there? Don't try and sound smart here with fallacy-filled philosophies. Believe, don't believe, whatever man; but don't pretend to make any more sense than what you are replying to. Of course you can OBJECTIVELY say Alexandra (or Jesus) existed if enough archeological, historical, scientific and forensic work has been done. And has it? Yes sir. Everything else you said in your previous reply isn't worth replying to

          • calledit78

            Just straight non sense your saying. The power of Indoctrination into Religion. Explain why you believe in religion and that will get us right to the point of your badgering over a make believe person.

          • cestusdei

            Looks like you are so indoctrinated you find any questioning of your faith to be threatening.

          • calledit78

            My faith? Atheist means no faith. Looks like you need a dictionary. I wonder how many times you had to look at my post to spell a form of indoctrination and probably had to look it up to know what it meant. Good luck to you and your make believe friend. lol

          • cestusdei

            You can't prove there is no God, so you believe it on faith alone. Good luck to you and your make believe aliens.

          • Doug Shaver

            Atheist means no faith. Looks like you need a dictionary.

            I've checked several dictionaries. None of them agrees with you.

          • Pax Humana

            Actually, as well as ironically, Atheism IS considered a religion, as well as false faith, and ditto for its related ilk, not just in the dictionary sense, but also in the legal sense, the spiritual/supernatural/metaphysical sense, and also in just plain common sense. Think about it for a moment...without religion, do you seriously think that Atheism and its related ilk could exist? You need religion in order to exist, or else you literally have nothing to complain about, as well as no targets for your hatred in your lives.

          • Kirk Martin

            You can BELIEVE IN FACTS, not fiction, the bibles of all religions are fictional books, made up to make a few people very very rich indeed. And blow me away it has worked very well indeed.

          • Pax Humana

            Atheism is also written in books, as well as its related ilk, yet you all conveniently ignore THOSE facts now, do you not?

          • calledit78

            There is actually hard evidence that that Alexander the Great existed and of the Civil war. Besides the Bible there is no Roman records of Jesus. Guess what they know where the first Roman Emperor's tomb is and that was 2000 years ago. But when it comes to Jesus nothing besides the Bible. You would think that the Bible which was written thousands of years ago, would allow Christianity to be able to say hey this is Jesus's tomb or cave were he was raised from the dead. But in the Bible which gives the most vague description to the actually place is because it was made up by Gospel writers. The reason so many believe in religion is basically they can't accept the truth of death. They want to believe in some magical place called heaven were you will see your loved ones again. That is why they say life is to short to waste and make every second last cause that is the truth.

          • Doug Shaver

            You would think that the Bible which was written thousands of years ago, would allow Christianity to be able to say hey this is Jesus's tomb or cave were he was raised from the dead.

            Why would I think that?

          • calledit78

            That is it really? don't waste my time old guy.

          • Doug Shaver

            That is it really?

            Yes, really, I was challenging you to produce some evidence for you assertion. Apparently, you can't.

            don't waste my time old guy.

            You come here making a bunch of assertions for which you are unwilling to offer any proof, indiscriminately insult everyone who disagrees with you, and it's your time that being wasted?

          • calledit78

            In the bible it only gives vague descriptions of that place you know why cause it didn't exist. Look at all the places that religious people flock to every year but the most important place where he was laid on a slab no one knows where it is? C'mon man. If we know where King Tut is and he has less value to you religious followers than why not Jesus. If the Bible gets passed on for thousands of years, the same for his resting place. Are you that brainwashed from religion which has done more separating of people than bringing them together. Fairy tales all have a message and so does the Bible which is to control you.

          • Doug Shaver

            Are you that brainwashed from religion which has done more separating of people than bringing them together.

            You tell me. I used to be religious. I no longer am. Do brainwashed people abandon the people who brainwashed them?

          • cestusdei

            So religious people are brainwashed? This is an insult. I am flagging it.

          • Doug Shaver

            I am flagging it.

            Be my guest.

          • cestusdei

            So you don't deny it's an insult.

          • Doug Shaver

            You can, and you will, interpret anything I say as confirming what your dogma tells you about atheism.

          • cestusdei

            You sound "brainwashed" by atheist dogma.

          • The Saint

            Well stated Doug.

          • The Saint

            Oooooh noooo Toto, you are being flagged!, what will you do?
            We might add that the religious act like children.

          • Pax Humana

            You just simply changed sides and ironically became brainwashed with some other belief structure. You Atheists are so stupid.

          • The Saint

            Religious people, of any religion, not just the narcissistic christians who think this is all about the, are not only brainwashed but delusional and devoid of rational, cognitive faculties.
            Flag this cestus.

          • Doug Shaver

            In the bible it only gives vague descriptions of that place you know why cause it didn't exist.

            You've already said that. Repetition is not evidence.

          • cestusdei

            What evidence? I can claim it is all made up. Just like your side does. Which is the point. In fact Tactitus and Pliny write of Christ, so there are Roman records. I guess in your magical world you don't need to look up facts.

            This post was 4 YEARS ago. And here you are in a tizzy over it. Atheists are so thin skinned.

          • The Saint

            You need to reset the clock on your puter cestus.

          • calledit78

            There is proof of Alexander the Great and here is some posts of archaeologists findings since you are so lazy. http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2137&context=clcweb From Purdue University

          • cestusdei

            I see no proof. It's all a hoax. There is no first hand evidence. I am just applying your logic here.

            What civil war? Did you see it first hand? If you don't see something first hand it doesn't exist, that's what you claim.

          • The Saint

            No one claims Alexander the great is the son of a god or that he rose from the dead.
            There is no such thing as an 'informed christian,' If they were informed they would not be christian.

          • brit1066

            BULL, informed christians is an OXYMORON, christians are informed about things that support their delusions but NOT about things that are INCONVENIENT.
            Did Alexander the Great exist? did Julius Caesar Exist? yes but if they did not then SO WHAT.
            Did they demand that we revere them and praise them? did they promise everlasting life for this fealty?
            NO, so what difference does it make if they existed or not.
            Now lets assume that jesus did NOT EXIST, bang goes all the structure of the religion, millions will be looking for another path to everlasting life, even more will probably commit suicide in disappointment.
            You can't just say jesus existed because you believe that Caesar existed. The EVIDENCE to support the existence of Caesar or Alexander is almost overwhelming, the evidence for christ almost NON EXISTENT.
            You are just another DESPERATE christian who will LIE, DIVERT or ATTACK people like me just to maintain your DELUSIONAL BELIEFS.
            STOP LYING, LYING IS A SIN NO HEAVEN FOR YOU.

          • Pax Humana

            Wow, you are a special kind of stupid.

          • michael

            Alexander The great never claimed to perform magic, nor did he say "believe in me or with the breath of my lips I shall smite you! You shall be tormented with fire and brimstone and worms forever!

          • michael

            I seriously deny there was a Jesus. I'm sure you do the same for Krishna and Zeus. The contradictions between the gospels assure us beyond reasonable doubt that the resurrection and even birth of Jesus never happened. The answers Christians make up to reconcile differences in the geneology/resurrection accounts, etc. are Ad Hoc and would be mocked if applied to The Koran or any other book.

          • Smellyface

            There is an inherent fallacy in your examples; the types of evidence used. For both Alexander and the Civil War, there are countless types of evidence. Widespread written accounts, physical artifacts, etc. These aren’t simply written by laymen, but by well-known historians who’ve had the veracity of their accounts further proved by ample physical evidence. To what evidence do you point that could in any way match that of well-known historical events like the above?

            Even the Bible wasn’t written by people who were actually there, so they were writing from second-hand accounts and no accompanying physical evidence. In essence, pure hearsay. No Roman record found ever mentions a man named Jesus, or Yeshua, being crucified by Pontius Pilate. There are no physical artifacts found to verify this story (and no, the Shroud of Turin doesn’t count).

          • Pax Humana

            With a username like yours, how can anyone ever take your comments seriously?

          • PeterPan4

            According to this argument the only thing you can be sure of is "cogito ergo sum" and is itself based on an unprovable. according to your rules, assumption. I am sure you have heard this raised before. Can you observe your assumption that objective truth is only available via direct observation?

            According to your own rules, you cannot claim someone else's system to be inferior because there is no observable proof. Just your own, individual feeling, and maybe your group of friends.

            But lets grant you your wish and assume it true; beside the physical sciences, there is no much else that you can assert is true and that others should hold too. If this is so, how can you arrogantly claim your position to be more true? You have no facts, no direct observations for your statements. Just a feeling.

            Luckily for the rest of us, we don't hold to your ideology and so have no such problems and truths can be proved by the use of unobservable reason.

          • stanz2reason

            Two things...

            First, thanks for replying to a comment written 2 years ago.

            Second, please re-read my comments in the context of the conversation. Then re-read your own. If that's too much to ask, I'll save you the trouble. Nothing of what you said made a lick of sense and didn't really at all address what was being discussed.

            I've no interest in continuing this conversation and frankly thought this site long ago faded into some obscure corner of the web. I'm indifferent to the fact that it's still around. Good luck in Neverland.

          • Doug N

            Stanz'
            I disagree with you that there is old stuff that works fine.
            Even Zeitgeists claims about some sanskrit that actually did look a little bit like the Christ story were written in a sanskrit style not used until 300AD

          • Pax Humana

            Zeitgeist is more Satanic propaganda.

          • The Saint

            Excellent post Stanz2.

          • Pax Humana

            "The fool has said in their heart, 'There is no God!'" Try to counter that one, you dimwitted Atheist troll!

          • Ian Harrod

            You see, atheist are the ones who have discovered the truth in spite of religion for centuries. If it was left up to yall, we would still think the earth was the center of the universe. We would still be only praying to cure disease. Atheists are merely still searching for truth. We are not coming from your point of view where all things Christian are true until proven otherwise. How very egocentric of you all as a group. To think that the whole point of existence was for us? How can you not see that as a sort of group narcissism? Oh because narcicsist don't see it in themselves. Its the same with your philosophy. It would be all good if you weren't the most murderous hypocritical group the planet has ever known.

          • Lazarus

            And what would that "truth" be that you have discovered?

          • cestusdei

            Actually it was a priest who discovered heliocentrism. Louis Pasteur was a devout Catholic. Stalin was a fine example of atheism in action. No one is more narcissistic then atheists as you do think it is all about you and there is no one else. 100 million dead due to atheism in just the last century. Oceans of blood on your hands.

            Oh and this article was 2 years ago.

          • DogDays

            100 million dead in the last century due to athiesm? sources?

          • cestusdei

            Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...oceans of blood and it was done by atheists. If you can blame Christians for what they do then we can blame atheists for what they do. Deal with it.

          • DogDays

            I don't blame Christians or atheists, at this point I think its human behaviour. I think its also human behaviour to argue over redumentals. I don't judge Christianity as a belief or construct but I blame those you can take a belief based on peace and make it into a system of hate. I don't think religion is the problem, but I do believe Christians are the reflection of how people view Christianity, maybe this needs some work. Despite any existential proof to support a messiah I think its more important to make it admiral. The problem is you get bad people from all works of life despite the belief their hold. I just wish we could all live with understanding of our differencesdifferences without casting judgement but I fear this of another utopia that cannot exist besides in the dreams that I dream. It seems also to be a problem with culture, race, and money that allows humans to lose their integrity. But I respect you for at least standing up for what you believe in. But remember to do it with love.

          • cestusdei

            You say you don't blame, but then tell us we make it a system of hate. Christians believe in original sin and we are not immune from committing sin. Atheists delight in a double standard where they blame us for being sinners, but deny they have ever done anything wrong ever. They have nothing over us when it comes to morality. And that is the truth. It is loving to tell the truth even when it is a hard truth. Atheists need to stop this hypocritical double standard and own up to their own failings.

          • DogDays

            You right I did say I dont blame Christians, and I don't, because I don't think a world without Christians would make (in my opinion) our dystopia any more satisfactory or peaceful. In fact I think the christian belief and Christ himself which Christians follow is the perfect example of how people should be, I say this in the sense of moralitymorality and character. I also say this regardless of an argument of the fiction or fact of the messiahs existenceexistence historically. Without certain figures through out history, I don't believe their has ever been an example of a perfect being everyone can aspire to besides Christ and Buddha etc.., but I do believe many fictional tales provide as sense of something we may achieve. Athiests have excused their morality by trying to make perfection(in a sense of good figures like Jesus etc..) An origin of fiction. They have also done this by discrediting religion through humour, to lazy to mention examples but you sure know what I mean living in the period of time as we do. This might be considered judging, but I do believe Christianity is needed. I find it sad that some intellectual minds see it as a source of propaganda, I'd rather believe in something better however fictional it might be. I do believe this is where morality and character in the preposition of morality becomes absolute, despite the source in fiction or fact is irrelevantirrelevant for myself. Sorry I meant humans have a habit of making any system or belief they part of an agenda of hate for those who believe differently but like said this is despite belief. We see all sorts of people cause harm to others as a result of difference in colour or creed etc.. Apologies for the bad grammar in advance( probably should have included this as a heading lol)

          • cestusdei

            I think original sin explains this, it effects all humans. Christ is indeed "better" then the fiction the atheists peddle.

          • ohgodwhatnow

            Thank you for your updated version of "Yes, Virginia, There Is A Santa Claus." I will sleep well tonight.

          • Pax Humana

            Actually, Santa Claus DID technically exist. His name was Saint Nicholas of Myra, he lived in Greece, and he lived from March 15, 270 to December 6, 343. Do you want to make you and your Useless Idiot Brigade friends look dumber than you already are in your lives?

          • Doug Shaver

            If you can blame Christians for what they do then we can blame atheists for what they do.

            And vice versa. I'll make you a deal. I'll stop blaming Christianity for the Inquisition and witch hunts if you'll stop blaming atheism for the atrocities of Communist dictatorships.

          • cestusdei

            How about we blame people for what they actually do individually?

          • Doug Shaver

            Every individual has to held accountable for their own behavior, assuming they're not cognitively impaired by mental illness or some such. But that doesn't mean we can't learn something useful by inquiring into their motivations and the ideological sources, if any, of those motivations.

          • cestusdei

            Then I say the same about atheists. Over 100 million murdered by them. We are back to square one.

          • Doug Shaver

            I said, "If anyone claims to have done something because it was God's will . . . ." Find me an atheist who killed someone and says he did it because there is no god, and then we can discuss the implications.

          • cestusdei

            Ah the usual dodge. So let me repeat. 100 MILLION murder by ATHEISTS.

          • Doug Shaver

            Ah the usual dodge.

            No dodging about it. I said that religion could be relevant in cases where people admit to being religiously motivated. When you find me an atheist who admits being motivated by his disbelief in God, then we can talk some more.

          • cestusdei

            100,000,000 plus people murdered by atheists. I realize you prefer not to deal with it, but it is a fact. More then in all religious wars combined. It's on you. No need to talk anymore if you aren't willing to accept the blame for the actions of those of your faith.

          • Doug Shaver

            100 MILLION murder by ATHEISTS.

            Putting your argument in capital letters doesn't make it any more valid.

          • cestusdei

            It is valid. It is true.

          • Doug Shaver

            It is true.

            You say so. Is that supposed all it takes to convince me, or to convince anybody reading this discussion?

            I'll tell you what can get a lot of people killed in a hurry. It's when someone who is considered credible by one group of people points to an outsider group and tells the insiders, "Those people are evil and should not be allowed to live." If the insiders need no more evidence than his word, then the killings start.

          • cestusdei

            Neither of us is going to be convinced. You are the exact type who considers religious people evil. It is only one step from that to killing us. The killings did start, over 100 million of them, and it was atheists doing the killing. I will keep reiterating that fact.

          • Sample1

            Doug persuaded me though. A part-time lurker.

            Mike

          • cestusdei

            Persuaded you? He has offered nothing.

          • Doug Shaver

            Neither of us is going to be convinced.

            I have shown whoever reads this thread why you have not convinced me. That matters more to me than whether I convince you.

          • cestusdei

            LOL right. So you lose and persuade no one who didn't already agree with you. 100 million dead and it's on you.

          • Doug Shaver

            So you win because you say so. Enjoy the glory.

          • cestusdei

            That's what you were saying. I find winning easy since atheists make it so easy. Enjoy your life because you might find the next life not so much fun.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Log back on to strange notions after a week absence and the first thing I see is a theist threatening hell. Classic.

          • cestusdei

            Yeah, it's like seeing an atheist talk about violence by Christians a few centuries ago and ignoring the 100 million they killed this century. Classic.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            So to what extent do you think the holocaust was made possible by centuries of Christian discrimination?
            Have you ever heard of the Protestant Reich Church? History is much greyer than you imagine and only a unserious person can go on about 100 million killed and unbelievers burning.

          • cestusdei

            You could go back and read some of the previous posts rather then play this typical atheist game. But...I do know it was made possible by devout atheists. 100 MILLION dead and they were MURDERED by ATHEISTS. That is a FACT. Nothing grey about it. It is very serious and it is still going on. I realize this threatens your faith, but you need to deal with it. I am going to keep repeating it. 100,000,000 plus murdered by you atheists in just the last century. More then in all religious conflicts in all of history. Check out that log in your eye.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            What do you mean by made possible by devout atheists? Perhaps it would be simplest if we started with Nazi Germany and you explain how those deaths were made possible by devout atheists. In Nazi Germany the vast majority of Germans were in fact Christians.

            I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe
            that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright.-Adolf Hitler

            Are you even going to comment on the fact that the holocaust was only made possible by hundreds of years of Christian antisemitism?

            Atheism isn't a faith. Repeating 100 million dead over and over again isn't an argument.

          • cestusdei

            In fact the Nazi's were not noted for their church attendance or deep prayer lives. I hate to tell you, but Hitler lied. I realize that you believe in him and trust every word that came from his lips, but he lied. In fact in private he stated he despised Christianity in much the same terms that you do. You have much in common with him. Likewise with Mao and Stalin who loved murdering people by the million. Atheism is a faith. You can't prove it scientifically. 100 million dead is both an argument and a fact. I will repeat it and throw it in your face.

            You do realize you are just repeating the usual atheist talking points. I have been thru this hundreds of times. I do wish you guys would come up with some new material. The old canards are very dull. You must be drunk on all that blood.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            In fact the Nazi's were not noted for their church attendance or deep prayer lives.

            Evidence? Nazi Germany was a Christian country. The hundreds of years of Christian anti-semitism made the Jews an easy scapegoat, which you have yet to acknowledge.

            I hate to tell you, but Hitler lied. I realize that you believe in him
            and trust every word that came from his lips, but he lied. In fact in
            private he stated he despised Christianity in much the same terms that
            you do.

            So you say. The fact of the matter is there are tons of Hitler quotes in which he talks about Christianity and uses it to promote his government. So, at the very least he is using Christianity as a tool to further his own agenda, which is pretty damning. One couldn't say the same about the great atheist thinkers like Paine and Orwell. It would be much easier if you pointed us to a verified Hitler quote in which he said he despised Christianity, rather than making ambiguous claims.

            You have much in common with him. Likewise with Mao and Stalin who loved murdering people by the million.

            It has been noted that you have compared me to Nazis and Stalinists. That says more about you than it says about me. However, let us stick with Nazi Germany for the present. Lets account for those 20 million non-military deaths first and then we can move on to the others.

            Atheism is a faith. You can't prove it scientifically.

            So everything non-scientific is a faith? I'm an agnostic atheist that does not believe any religion is true. I have reasons. To borrow from Sample, I'm faith free.

            100 million dead is both an argument and a fact. I will repeat it and throw it in your face.

            This supposed it fact is what we are discussing. If you want to assume your conclusion then that is your prerogative, but it is indicative of bad reasoning.

            You do realize you are just repeating the usual atheist talking points

            And you have no answer for them.

            You must be drunk on all that blood.

            Is this a blood libel?

          • cestusdei

            As I said, they did not go to church. In fact they were told to resign from the church. Hitler hated the church. So they have much in common with you.

            You insist that Hitler was honest. You have such faith in your leader. Rather touching given what happened to him. Which was...he got married in a secular ceremony, did not receive last rites, and killed himself. Not exactly a Catholic way to go out. But a very atheist way of doing it. He said once, "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing
            of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." You would agree.

            100 million people were murdered by ATHEISTS in just the last century. More then that actually, I am being conservative. You have no answer for that other then changing the subject and defending Hitler. You are the one playing the blood libel game. I just turn it back on you. Do try to come up with something new. Show some independent thought.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Hitler hated the church. So they have much in common with you.

            What he hated about the Church was that it competed with him and the Nazi party for power. He wanted to use Christianity to cement his power. I'm not interested in power over other people or telling other people what to do. The atheists I know think the same way. We have nothing in common with Hitler. Now organized religion does seek to control and tell people what to do.

            You insist that Hitler was honest.

            Incorrect.

            Which was...he got married in a secular ceremony, did not receive last
            rites, and killed himself. Not exactly a Catholic way to go out.

            I don't think I claimed that Hitler was Catholic. Not that a CAtholic cant do "uncatholic things." What I did claim is that the Christian attitude towards Jews is directly responsible for the holocaust - a point you have completely ignored.

            But a very atheist way of doing it.

            Or by your reasoning: fish and humans both swim therefore humans are fish.

            He said once, "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing
            of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." You would agree.

            I wouldn't agree that the ancient world was pure, light(?), and serene. I don't think the world necessarily becomes better because we remove Christianity. I don't even hate Christianity. I think there are evil parts of it and I think it is amusing, but I don't hate it.

            100 million people were murdered by ATHEISTS in just the last century.

            Believing Christians pulled the trigger.

            You are the one playing the blood libel game.

            The Blood Libel is Christian propaganda that claimed that Jews murdered Christians for their blood to use in Jewish rituals.

          • cestusdei

            So now you admit he hated it and did not believe it. In fact atheists are all about controlling others and killing them if they refuse to comply. They have done that over 100 million times in the last century.

            You indeed insisted he was honest. Now you find that a bit embarrassing.

            So you now admit he was not a Catholic or even a Christian. So it had no bearing on what he chose to do to the Jews. It was motivated by his racial views not any religious ones. He was influenced by atheists who hated Christianity. That is the point you ignore.

            That is your reasoning. You conflate Nazi's and Christians.

            So you now admit the did despise Christianity. We are much better because of Christianity. Would you rather live here or in atheist North Korea? Of course you hate Christianity and Christians, that's why you are posting all of this.

            Believing atheists pulled over 100 million triggers.

            The new blood libel is atheists trying to blame all violence on Christians. You do it despite 100 million murders on your own conscience.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            It is obvious that you do not desire rational conversation. Since I do, I wont be continuing this conversation. I'll leave you with the last word. I already know what those words will be.

          • Lazarus

            There is quite a bit of the quivering lip on SN these last few hours, isn't there? Why don't you rather not accuse cd of not desiring rational conversation and deal with the essence of his charge? Where is he wrong?

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I have written three posts to cd trying to have a rational conversation and dealing with his charge. I asked that we stick with one particular regime at a time (in this case Nazi Germany) and deal with those 20 million deaths and then we can consider the others. CD wants to repeat 100 million over and over again, when he cant even get 20 million.

            I asked CD repeatedly, if Christian anti-Semitism played a role in the holocaust and he ignored the question in favor of comparing me to Hitler.

            Now, it has been a brutal week of work. I want my conversation to be pleasant. I want the people I converse with to think that my moral compass is not the same as Hitler's. I want my conversation to actually be a conversation and not listening to the same rant over and over again. I also want a beer or 12.

            I'm only at this site again, because I was having a pleasant conversation with Jim about contingency arguments. I'm not going to stay at this site to be called a Nazi.

          • Lazarus

            But it's ok for you to call the author of the OP "dense" as you've done Over There. How does that work?

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Joe is a public figure writing posts for public consumption. The general tone of his posts and his vacuous articles demand direct criticism. If Joe stepped up his game, I wouldn't describe him in harsh terms at the other place. Now I also think CD is pretty dense as well.
            However, the point you are missing is that I tried to have a rational conversation with CD. I don't think CD is capable of such conversations so I moved on.

          • Lazarus

            You actually seem quite comfortable with that hypocrisy. Let's leave that there then.

          • David Nickol

            There are some people it's not worth engaging with. There are some arguments it's not worth having. It seems to me that when someone accuses you have having "100 million murders on your conscience," it's an argument not worth having with a person not worth engaging with.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I'm really surprised you are defending CD's behavior

          • Lazarus

            CD's "behavior" can be judged by others who could be bothered. I do not believe that he called you personally a Nazi. He was referring to atheists, to the historical examples he mentioned. I think his point was a simple one.

            Other than that, I tried to do two things. Firstly, to try to get you to engage with the essence of his criticism, and secondly I pointed out the blatant hypocrisy of acting all offended by, as far as your perception goes, being insulted while, as is clear from my examples, you and certain people on another site that you frequent have absolutely no qualms in insulting people on a regular basis.

            You do not acknowledge this. You do not see the hypocrisy. I am as surprised as you are, just for a different reason.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I do not believe that he called you personally a Nazi. He was referring to atheists, to the historical examples he mentioned.

            CD:

            You have much in common with him [Hitler]. Likewise with Mao and Stalin who loved murdering people by the million.

            CD:

            You must be drunk on all that blood.

            CD:

            Hitler hated the church. So they [Nazis] have much in common with you.

            CD:

            You insist that Hitler was honest. You have such faith in your leader.

            If Hitler is my leader that makes me a Nazi....

            CD:

            He said once, "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing
            of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." You would agree.

            Now he insinuates that I agree with random Hitler quotes.

            CD:

            Would you rather live here or in atheist North Korea? Of course you hate Christianity and Christians, that's why you are posting all of this.

            Further libel.

            CD:

            Believing atheists pulled over 100 million triggers.

            Complete BS. CD is a straight up liar.

            The new blood libel is atheists trying to blame all violence on Christians. You do it despite 100 million murders on your own conscience.

            Accuses me of being partially responsible for 100 million deaths.

            Please, Laz, let us not pretend like CD wasn't overly insulting, and let us not pretend that he has actual arguments.

            I think his point was a simple one.

            And what is that? I'm afraid his point was lost in his all-caps ranting and his name calling.

            secondly I pointed out the blatant hypocrisy of acting all offended by, as far as your perception goes, being insulted while, as is clear from my examples, you and certain people on another site that you frequent have absolutely no qualms in insulting people on a regular basis.

            I am not even remotely offended by CD. I have a very low opinion of him. I'm not going to talk to him anymore, just as I wouldn't argue with a child or a crazy person. I'm not offended.

            This is about my personal choice. I don't want to have tedious conversations. CD is tedious.

            When and why I have qualms about insulting people is another matter. There are those that I wont insult because I respect them. There are others I wont insult because I pity them. Then there are times I wont insult because I don't want us all to be "blind and toothless." Personally, I think most of the apologetics that I run into his parrots repeating things they don't actually understand. I'm not sure how to say that without being insulting. Usually I just ignore the things I think are dumb and focus on other things.

            You do not acknowledge this. You do not see the hypocrisy. I am as surprised as you are, just for a different reason.

            I'm a hypocrite, because I insult people or am around those who do insult people, while at the same time not wanting to have a conversation with someone who has nothing intelligent to say. One is not like the other.

            Although, if you want to enlighten me as to what CDs point actually is (well, beyond gratuitous insults) I'd be grateful.

          • Sample1

            What an asshole.

            Mike

          • Michael Murray

            I suspect if we gathered up the set of all people who killed someone in the last century and sorted by commonalities the highest wouldn't be a shared atheism but shared possession of a penis.

          • cestusdei

            Gee why didn't he flag this comment I wonder? It's apparently okay to bash Christians.

          • Lazarus

            CD rants and rages on this topic in a manner that could certainly do with some restraint and editing. I am not necessarily defending him. As I said, his rant seems to me to be more against generic atheists than against you personally. As far as I can tell he does not know you, so those allegations leveled against you would be nonsensical.

            His simple point, however gracelessly put, is that the hoary old atheist attack against Christians for all the murders and deaths we have committed over the ages is blatant hypocrisy. I know that the debate has been waged on SN, but non-believers have caused a staggering number of deaths, especially in the 20th century.

          • Sample1

            Milquetoast genitalia. First words that came to mind. I don't know you.

            Mike, generic atheist.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Humanism or non-belief didn't cause those deaths. Ideology did. Certainly in the case of Hitler, he may have not been a Christian, but he was also not an atheist.

            I'm not particularly well read on the USSR, China, or Cambodia, so it is difficult for me to make judgements on the reasons for those deaths. I have read some on Nazi Germany and WW2, and I do not think you can blame the holocaust on atheism.

            I'm not sure exactly how to categorize the relationship between violence and dogmatic ideologies. Fundamentalists of any stripe that want to impose their way of life on others scare me. I think those are the sort of movements that can cause death on a massive scale. Historically, religion has been a vehicle for fundamentalism, but so have other non-religious ideologies.

            I can obviously find moments in history when religion has lead people down some very dark paths. I can also point to modern instance of religion leading people to what I would consider wrong moral conclusions. But I wouldn't want to extrapolate these obsevations to all religion.

          • Lazarus

            Would you not (should you not) concede that a life built on nihilism, an absolute lack of love, no acceptance of accountability (pre- or post mortem) could cause these wars and death?

            We know that it can. We know that a fervent religious belief can cause those harms.

            As a standard disclaimer let me add that I am not saying that you, or all, or most atheists do feel or live that way.
            I am however saying that we should all concede the patently obvious, and that is that both believers and non-believers can, and did, causally connect their views to wars and murders on a massive scale. To argue the contrary in the face of history is silly.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I don't think there is anything here that I would disagree with. I would add though that I don't think atheism per se is what caused the wars, but it was definitely part of larger worldviews that were responsible for violence. A particular brand of communism caused the chaos - not atheism.

            Edit: I dont think it is really fair to compare atheism with religion. One is a belief on one thing. Religion is more of a worldview ( or at least can be).

          • Lazarus

            Both are worldviews though ;)

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I wouldn't describe myself as an atheists first and foremost though. I would say I have the worldview of an unbeliever with a mixture of stoicism, utilitarianism, liberalism, hedonism, and many other things (maybe even some Christianity). A worldview encompasses so much more than one's beliefs on deities. More importantly it includes things like how we make moral judgments and how we come to knowledge.
            It is much more interesting and messy than a lack of belief in deities.

          • Lazarus

            Great description.

          • cestusdei

            Amen.

          • cestusdei

            Yes, they are: 100 million people murdered by atheists in just the last century. You have no rational response to that fact.

          • Doug Shaver

            In fact atheists are all about controlling others and killing them if they refuse to comply.

            Are we also all about lying through our teeth? I have not in my lifetime met a single atheist who admits to wanting to kill believers just for believing.

          • cestusdei

            I haven't met a fellow Catholic who wants to kill people, but atheists screech all the time about those violent Christians. But in the last century over 100 million people have been murdered by you atheists. Start dealing with that fact.

          • Doug Shaver

            atheists screech all the time about those violent Christians.

            I don't. Some atheists do, but as an indicator of how many atheists want to kill believers just for believing, the datum is worthless.

          • cestusdei

            Much like the atheist bleating about those violent Christians and blaming all wars on religion. 100 MILLION murdered by YOU atheists. That indicates to me how many atheists want to kill us.

          • Doug Shaver

            That indicates to me how many atheists want to kill us.

            So I gather. That tells me how much attention anyone should pay you whenever you say that any X is an indicator of some Y.

          • cestusdei

            You are paying attention. But so are we. We don't have to make false accusations. We can point to the truth. 100 million murdered by YOU atheists. Yet you don't take responsibility or apologize or promise to stop. I think that's because you actually agree with it.

          • Doug Shaver

            Yet you don't take responsibility

            No, I don't, because I am not responsible for any murders that I did not commit.

            or apologize or promise to stop.

            I will not apologize for anything I didn't do, and it would be illogical of me to promise to stop something that I never started.

            I think that's because you actually agree with it.

            What you think is not logical.

          • cestusdei

            See you dodge your responsibility for all those murders. 100 million people murdered by YOU atheists and you are not sorry about it. You don't promise to stop it. I am correct, you agree with it.

          • Sample1

            Brandon Vogt, owner of this site, would really like you to cut it out. He can't be pleased with your posts but does allow them.

            Mike, loving atheist

          • cestusdei

            He hasn't mentioned it. Are you his official spokesman? I am sure you would like me to be silent and let you trash the Church unfairly. That is no loving. Killing 100 million people is not loving.

            Let's be clear. You guys began, as you often do, with the "Catholicism is so evil and violent..." I simply use YOUR own reasoning against you. You don't like it? Then don't do it to us. It's that simple.

          • Sample1

            I'm sorry.

            Mike

          • cestusdei

            Okay.

          • Doug Shaver

            See you dodge your responsibility for all those murders.

            You say so.

          • cestusdei

            I say the truth. 100 million and its on you.

          • Doug Shaver

            I say the truth

            You say that, too. You're not giving me any reason, other than your say-so, to believe anything you're saying.

          • cestusdei

            It is easily verified. Add up all the people murdered by you atheists in the last century. It's over 100 million. Atheism is a violent religion.

            I'm must doing to you what you do to us. If you don't like it then stop doing it to us. But you won't.

          • Doug Shaver

            Atheism is a violent religion.

            It is not a religion of any kind.

          • cestusdei

            It has dogmas like any religion. It also punishes heretics with death, over 100 million times in the last century. We gave that up centuries ago, when will you?

          • Ignatius Reilly
          • cestusdei

            I don't have to go far back. Just the last century to list 100 MILLION murders committed by devout atheists. Let me repeat, 100 MILLION. Atheists are extremely violent and intolerant based on that fact. I can keep repeating that truth. When will you finally deal with it?

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Can you read? That happened in '76. After your alleged atheists atrocities.

          • cestusdei

            Those atheist murders continue. Look at North Korea the perfect atheist state. No religion allowed. It's paradise for you.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Make it 6.

          • cestusdei

            Ah so you can't answer.

          • Sample1

            North Korea is the most religious nation on Earth.

            Mike

          • cestusdei

            No, it is atheist and acts accordingly.

          • Ignatius Reilly
          • cestusdei

            100 MILLION murders and it is still going on by YOU atheists.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            3 beers says cestusdei is a computer program

          • Sample1

            I've never counted to 100 million so I find his claim ludicrous. Plus it's the wrong color.

            Mike

          • cestusdei

            Truth hurts doesn't it.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Naw, I barely care enough about this conversation to reply.

          • cestusdei

            Yet you do.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Look I sent you a link that showed one of your claims was false. Namely, that Christians haven't committed any atrocities in the last century. You then go off on some other tangent that I don't care about.

          • cestusdei

            I can send you a link to the black book of communism that lists millions of deaths. Yet you want to talk about something else.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            No, have shown me that you aren't interested in dialogue on that subject, so I'm not talking to you about it anymore.

          • cestusdei

            I went back and flagged some of the insults you leveled at me when talking to others. That isn't dialogue. Accusing us of being Nazi's isn't dialogue. Until you can get over that kind of thing there can't be any dialogue.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I didn't accuse anyone of being a Nazi, but you did. You also accused myself and Doug of being complicit in genocide. I dont care enough to flag your comments, but hope moderation sees how you have been behaving and bans you.

          • cestusdei

            It began with the usual "Christianity is violent" routine. Your behavior leaves much to be desired. You directly insult me. One of you called me an ahole. You want me banned. You want those who disagree with you to be silenced. So much for freedom of speech and thought.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I never once claimed that Christianity is violent. Get your facts straight.

          • cestusdei

            I went back and saw your comments and insults about me. You have no problem being deceptive. This whole thing BEGAN when your side made the usual claims of Christians being so violent blah blah. I just gave you a dose of your own medicine. If you don't like it then don't do it to us.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Link to my comment where I said that, because I didn't.

            You aren't capable of giving me a dose of my own medicine.

          • cestusdei

            I already flagged it.

            I just did.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Whatever. I'm going to block you.

          • Valence

            Poor guy is horribly confused. Called me a hypocrite for something someone else did. I've experienced all kinds of strange insults/behavior in these comm boxes but that one was new.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            Yes he is. I don't want to deal with his rantings anymore. Out of sight out of mind.

          • cestusdei

            Ah "whatever" the teenagers cop out. Go right ahead. You started this and I guess I win it.

          • David Nickol

            I hesitate to get into this, but when you say the murders were committed by atheists, are you counting (for example) all Nazi murders as committed by atheists? Hitler may have been an atheist, but I would wager the vast majority of people who carried out Hitler's orders were Lutherans and Catholics. There were Lutheran and Catholic chaplains, for example, in Hitler's armies. Why would atheist armies have Christian chaplains?

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I would stay away. :-)
            It seems like this site is basically unmoderated.

          • cestusdei

            Nazism was atheist. But even if you leave them out Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Jong il etc. more then make the point. I have yet to see any atheist actually deal with this issue. Instead you just go back a thousand years and try to find something on the Christians. It's a game and you are not serious.

          • Lazarus

            "Heretics" from what? The "atheist religion"?

          • cestusdei

            Yes, they kill them. 100 million or more in the last century.

          • Lazarus

            So people from the "atheist religion" kill "heretics" from that religion.

            Name one instance.

          • cestusdei

            I named 100 million instances.

          • Sample1

            Why are prisons chock full of Christians but statistically, yes per capita, atheists make up the smallest percentage of prisoners?

            Are you in prison?

            Mike, atheists help you live better

          • cestusdei

            Why are 100 million people dead because of atheists? Are you a killer? Atheists don't make our lives better. The poor go to churches for help not the local atheist group.

          • Doug Shaver

            It has dogmas like any religion

            So say its adversaries. It's like Protestants telling everyone that Catholics worship Mary.

          • cestusdei

            Or like atheists saying that Christianity is violent and causes violent.

          • Doug Shaver

            It's like Protestants telling everyone that Catholics worship Mary.

            Or like atheists saying that Christianity is violent and causes violence.

            Right. They're both false.

          • cestusdei

            So are you read to stop saying it?

          • Doug Shaver

            So are you read to stop saying it?

            Stop saying what? That Christianity is violent? I have not been saying it.

            Are you assuming that we atheists all think alike?

          • cestusdei

            You atheists assume all religions are alike. This whole argument has been about precisely your assertion that Christianity is violent. Now you are backing down? That's fine by me.

            So we are agreed that Christianity is not inherently violent and has done immense good in the world. Thanks for your positive view of our faith and the nice compliment. Perhaps you could get your fellow atheists to do the same.

          • Doug Shaver

            You atheists assume all religions are alike.

            No, not all of us assume that. A whole big bunch of us are quite aware that religions are not all alike.

            So we are agreed that Christianity is not inherently violent and has done immense good in the world.

            I have not said anything about how much good it has done.

          • cestusdei

            I have yet to meet them.

            So now you are going back to your original bigotry. I guess atheists don't care about objective truth. We have 100 million instances of it.

          • Doug Shaver

            I have yet to meet them.

            You have just met one, unless you're calling me a liar.

          • cestusdei

            Look back over your own posts.

            If you deny that atheists murdered 100 million people in the last century you are calling me a liar.

          • Doug Shaver

            If you deny that atheists murdered 100 million people in the last century

            I don't deny that, but you're changing the subject.

            I said that many atheists agree that religions are not all alike, and you replied that you have never met one, and I said you have met one now. Do you, or do you not, agree that you have met at least one atheist who will say that religions are not all alike?

          • cestusdei

            No, that IS the subject. It is you who are trying to change it. I can understand. That ocean of blood you swim in is inconvenient. I guess you didn't mean it earlier when you were backing away from your condemnation of Christianity. I didn't think you did. I have yet to see any atheist apologize and promise to end their homicide against religious people.

          • Doug Shaver

            You said earlier: "So now you are going back to your original bigotry." You've got some gall.

          • cestusdei

            You have some gall to be critical of us after 100 million people were murdered by atheists.

          • David Nickol

            I have flagged this comment as inappropriate. You are engaged in a mindless rant against all atheists. There are ways to discuss the connection between religion and violence or atheism and violence, but your approach is counterproductive. My understanding of the purpose of SN is to encourage dialogue. You are just repeating the same thing over and over again. I have always felt that one of the most important responsibilities of those who would engage in Christian apologetics is to conduct themselves in such a way that non-Christians can at least like them even if they don't agree with them. Instead, I think the reaction to your comments among many is, "If that's what Christians are like, I don't want to be one."

          • cestusdei

            Did you flag the comment and rant that Christianity is violent. Isn't that counterproductive? Is this whole conversation an attempt to flag me and silence anyone who disagrees with you? Did you flag the others for repeating themselves mindlessly? If that is what atheists are like I don't want to be one. Your comment shows a double standard. I am flagging it.

          • David Nickol

            Did you flag the comment and rant that Christianity is violent.

            You are not even making sense any more. Where have I suggested, let alone ranted, that Christianity is violent? A good starting point for a discussion like this would be Karen Armstrong's Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence.

            I think most of what has been taken to be religiously motivated or "atheistically" motivated violence has been motivated by ideologies and other factors that, at bottom, had little to do with religion.

            If that is what atheists are like I don't want to be one.

            I am not an atheist.

          • cestusdei

            I do not accept her as being objective. So I cannot take her as a starting point. This whole thing began with an atheist making the usual false claim that Christianity is inherently violent. Then another tried the old "Nazi's were Christian" routine. Another called me an ahole. None of those comments were flagged by you. You're right, that doesn't make sense...unless you practice a double standard.

            Why am I on about this? Because it happens all.the.time. Over and over again the same thing. It gets really old. Especially when it began about a comment that was several years old in an article that is about Jesus/Horus. Yet atheists insist on trotting it out again. Ask THEM if they are willing to accept that violence, such as the inquisition, had little to do with religion but was motivated by other issues/ideologies. If they are willing to admit that then we might get somewhere.

          • David Nickol

            I am blocking you and consequently will see none of your future comments.

          • cestusdei

            That's fine by me. It wasn't like you were in good faith anyway.

          • Valence

            You're a big cry-baby, at least you make it clear here. I've been debating politics lately, so it's not like it's even possible for someone on the internet to offend me, lol! You should try it some time...go to Breitbart.com and say something "liberal". It's a blast :)

          • cestusdei

            And you don't cry over 100 million murders?

            Actually I only started to flag comments when one of YOU started being a crybaby. It is typical of liberals to bash and then try to silence everyone else. You are a hypocrite.

          • Valence

            Lol! You're quite amusing, and I'm not a *liberal* in many respects.

          • cestusdei

            Thus far you are. You refuse to tell the liberals their logic is illogical.

          • Valence

            Whatever, have fun!

          • cestusdei

            The truth is fun.

          • Valence

            Wait are calling me a hypocrite for something someone else did? You really are deeply confused aren't you, poor thing.

          • cestusdei

            No, you are confused. Let me help you.
            1. The atheists trotted out the "Christians are violent" canard.
            2. I used their own logic to skewer atheism.
            3. They objected and refused to see the irony.
            4. You come along and notice it.
            5. You don't seem to realize that was the point all along.

            I hope that helps.

          • Valence

            So..How am I a hypocrite? You know what that word means right?
            I don't have a position on the God debate. It would be like a mosquito having a position on whether lonworks or bacnet is the better protocol. The true nature of things seems beyond our comprehension and I'm cool with that. Buddhism and mindfulness are pretty useful and Buddha actually had a similar position on the God question. I'm not claiming to be a good Buddhist though...I'm too much of an ass for that.

          • cestusdei

            You still seem confused and are now changing the subject. Why are you even commenting? Are you trying to convert me to Buddhism now?

          • Valence

            Lol, you seem to be assuming I'm a militant atheist and I was setting the record straight. For me, comment is just a trivial past time while I wait on things to load or stabilize at work. Largely it's a function of SIWOTI, nothing grandiose. What on Earth gives you the idea I would want to convert you to anything? Besides, the only evangelistic religions are Christianity and Islam.

          • cestusdei

            I am assuming that you are here to cause trouble. I am right about that. I am guessing you are a teen with little else to do.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            I like Karen Armstrong. This is a great article. A little long, but shorter than a book. I think it might be from the book or at least similar to the arguments in the book.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/-sp-karen-armstrong-religious-violence-myth-secular

          • Valence

            Countless millions have been killed by people who believe the sun is at the center of the solar system. Do we hold everyone who believes the sun is at the center of the solar system responsible for their death? Of course not, the entire concept is completely idiotic.
            Your argument:
            Premise 1: If someone believes something, he/she is responsible for whatever someone else who believes the same thing does.
            Premise 2: Atheists killed people

            Conclusion: All atheist are responsible for everyone killed by atheists.

            Some atheist make a similar argument and it's just as silly.

          • cestusdei

            Actually that is the ATHEIST argument. I just turn it around and apply it to them. So in fact you just refuted what the atheists say lol. That was my point all along. Try to keep up will you.

          • Valence

            I said it was silly when atheists do it. What is the point of turning a dumb argument against someone who isn't using it? You just make yourself look foolish, but don't stop on my account. Part of liberty is being free to make all the foolish arguments you want ;)

          • cestusdei

            The point was for THEM to see that their argument was dumb. You are making yourself look foolish. Why aren't you telling them to get the point? Why are you talking to me? Tell THEM.

          • Valence

            I'll bite. Link a comment making this argument.

          • cestusdei

            Look back at the argument to when it started. I am not going to do your work for you.

          • Valence

            No one was making this argument but you. I don't doubt you think someone else was, considering your obvious cognitive deficits. You probably can't​ help it, of course, people don't decide to be born dimwitted. Sometimes people do it to themselves via drugs and alcohol or reckless incident that causes brain damage, but that's fairly rare. I realize what I just said is insulting, but it seems to be true and explains the situation here. Feel free to insult me back if it makes you feel better, I honestly don't mind :) The ego is just an annoying evolutionary construct that is necessary in small doses but most people tend to let it get out of control and drive their behavior.

          • cestusdei

            I think it is true that you are here only to insult. You aren't even very good at it. This is what you liberals refer to as "dialogue." It is easier then actually trying to debate. I blame the educational system that you have created. I realize I asked you to look back to the genesis of the argument. That was wrong of me. It required you to actually do some thinking and realize that you didn't know what you were talking about when you chimed in. I can't expect honesty from you.

          • Valence

            Lol, there you go, insult my insults. I guess that makes it a meta insult ;) It seems you are here to insult atheists so I'm not sure why you are complaining. It's common for people with cognitive deficits to delude themselves about it at any rate.
            Just FYI no one in their right mind should take an anonymous internet conversation seriously, tis the nature of the medium. Thanks for your odd comments, and good luck with your atheist insulting :)

          • cestusdei

            So you admit it. That was pretty stupid of you. It was easy to defeat the atheists with their blather about Hitler. Never heard of Godwin's law I guess. Enjoy your high school years.

          • Valence

            Think what you will, I couldn't care less. Later!

          • cestusdei

            You cared enough to respond. Don't be late for class.

          • Sample1

            You owe Ignatius an apology.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HG0yH6Jtp0

            Mike

          • cestusdei

            No, I don't. I simply told him the truth.

          • Ignatius Reilly

            He actually doubled down and explicitly said I have much in common with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

          • Pax Humana

            History is black and white. Historical revisionism is black that is pretending to be gray. You represent the latter in your life.

          • Pax Humana

            How about I just gather up the Atheists and get guns pointed to their heads like their predecessors did to Christians and Jews, make them be bound, unable to move, and tell them to fight their way out of it by relying upon themselves and what they value? Oh, and they will be given no clothes and they will also be searched, as well as shot with tranquilizer darts before being bound. I know the end of the story...each one of you will be dead and forgotten, while YAHWEH EL ELOHIM lives on, and that is honestly on par with burning alive in Hell for each of you....that is kind of like a Thanos snap, right?

          • Patrick

            So, of the 100 million killed, every single death was wrought by the hand of an atheist soldier? Every bullet, bomb, grenade, knife, etc that killed those 100 million was from an atheist soldier? Ha! And all those dictators you mentioned doing the killing of these so called 100 million more than likely, personally killed with their own two hands a handful of people. Who was doing most of the killing I wonder? Oh yea, people of faith were/are the majority of the soldiers on the front line. Once again, blind faith makes them follow orders without thinking for themself and probably calling the slaughter as righteous and gods will. They could have just, you know, not killed, and stood up for basic human morals and ethics we all are born with. There is one basic, golden rule in all religions: Don't be a dick. And I don't need an old storybook to know this or how to show compassion and kindness to my fellow humans. Believe what life is based upon, don't base your life upon your beliefs

            P.S. Here is my source to back up the common sense/knowledge of the numbers of religious soldiers far outweighing their nonreligious counterpoints
            https://books.google.com/books?id=jtoaAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=us+military+religion+statistics&source=bl&ots=btHjHf8n50&sig=YOT-L9vr2b_8lOk8_Utjtp-78CY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW8s_BuYvTAhVJ0FQKHd8FBuw4HhDoAQgmMAQ#v=onepage&q=us%20military%20religion%20statistics&f=false

            *Mic drop*

          • cestusdei

            Yes, it's all on you atheists. Just like you blame Christians in exactly the same fashion. I am just using your "logic" on you. If you don't like it...then perhaps you should reconsider your usual inane bigotry. But I'm not holding my breath.

            Leave the mic down. You have nothing worth saying.

          • cestusdei

            This is where it started. Quickly followed by the usual atheist attack on Christianity for being violent. I didn't start this. Doug did.

          • Leo Jansen

            Communism is Atheism!

          • calledit78

            Religious numbers are falling fast why, science and the indoctrination into religion process is failing, why young people got better things to do than believe in make believe friends. The funny thing is that adults think it is funny or weird to have a make believe friend but then they believe in a God. Now that is what you call irony.

          • Pax Humana

            Atheists are liars.

          • The Saint

            The 'real' fact is that so-called christians normally live in denial not accepting evidence before their eyes and desperately cling to myths by self-delusion because no proof exists of their deity, none.

          • Kirk Martin

            Jesus never lived on this planet, he was made up and written into the history books some 200 years after the events happened... These are FACTS not the fiction you are reading. If you want to believe in someone, believe in yourself and stop being a slave on this planet. Or do you believe in Harry Potter also?

          • Kirk Martin

            And before you as I am an Atheist, no I am a human being, who has seen religion for what it truly is. Why do you think the Pope sits on a gold throne, where do you think he got the money for that! Yes for all of you blind fools... #WAKEUP

          • Joey Stovall

            Cestusdei , maybe u should do more research... Horus had 12 disciples, born of a virgin, performed miracles, healed the sick, ect....
            What more has to be there for it to be connected?

          • mthomas304

            Not sure if objective truth has much of a place in a faith based evaluation....?

        • bertmcdert

          Stanz won this argument like 10 exchanges ago, except that arguing with trolls constitutes a loss from the get. If only the stupid were less arrogant.

      • Andrew G.

        That kind of argument fails the conservation-of-evidence test, unless you're seriously telling us that your belief would be reduced by the lack of any such foreshadowing.

        • I'm not sure my belief in Jesus as God would be reduced without foreshadowing among the great pagan myths, since my faith does not depend on them, but the fact they occur makes sense and, if nothing else, does not contradict Christianity.

          By the way, the best book on how pagan-myths foreshadowed Christianity is G.K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man.

          • Longshanks

            But literally everything which is ever proven or eventually known will "not contradict Christianity" since it'll get ret-conned in.

            "Oh, there's an incredibly rich soil of human beliefs, of which many bear striking resemblances to what we believe and have similar amounts of credible evidence, long predating the germination of the one-true-belief that we have? Yeah, those were just foreshadowings. Like god was giving us a preview of the next episode while the credits roll on this one."

            "Oh, new scientific evidence contradicts things we forced you to believe before? Yeah, sure, we were protecting the spiritual lives of the faithful before your evidence was conclusive, but now we're totally in. We'll issue an apology in a couple hundred years."

          • Longshanks, this is not true and I don't think you really believe it. There are plenty of ways to disprove (or "contradict") Christianity. The simplest of which is to provide a natural explanation for the Resurrection which fits the available evidence and is more plausible than the supernatural alternative. If you can prove the Resurrection is a made-up claim, you've defeated Christianity. Catholicism is built on that foundation.

          • Of course, at this stage of the game, based on the available evidence, it is as impossible to prove the Resurrection is a "made-up claim" as it is impossible to prove it was an actual historical event. (I know many are convinced it is a proven fact, but of course it isn't.) And of course there are a number of interpretations of the Resurrection—e.g., Jesus lives on through the faith of his followers—which even a non-Christian or an atheist could acknowledge as true.

            I think that is reinforced by the idea of "nonoverlapping magisteria." If religion and science do not overlap, they cannot contradict each other. And history is part of the "magisteria" of science. It doesn't overlap the magisteria of religion, and therefore it cannot prove religion false.

            By the way, I doubt that most people who don't believe in the Resurrection consider it a "made-up claim."That's like the old "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" trilemma. It could be, for example (just one of many possibilities), that the idea of the Resurrection really did begin as the idea that Jesus somehow lived on through the faith of his followers, and that concept "evolved" over time into a belief in a real, historical, physical resurrection.

            One thing does seem obvious to me, though, and that is that the "Jesus/Horus connection" is so much bunk that it doesn't need debunking. No one needed to borrow from Egyptian religion to write the story of Jesus. It is a very Jewish story based on Jewish ideas and events of the first century.

          • David I am almost entirely with you, and would add this: I have always found that the "magisteria" do overlap at some point. For example, the question of why people believe religious things is an issue of human psychology and neuroscience.

            No one needed to borrow from Egyptian religion to write the story of Jesus.

            I also agree with this, insofar as it refers to the story of the life and public ministry of Jesus. However, when you get to deification and subsequent theology, it is very much a break from Jewish ideas and shows clear signs of influence from the pagan Greek speaking community that supplied converts to keep Christianity going in the latter first century.

          • Randy Gritter

            The non-overlapping magisteria is not a Catholic idea. Truth about faith and morals does overlap with scientific truth. Not as much as people suppose but there is definitely some overlap and the church does not say there is not.

            The faith is very Jewish. The early church fathers dug into the Old Testament and the apostolic tradition for truth. Both sources were 100% Jewish. They did get their philosophical framework and language from the Greeks.

          • Doug Shaver

            There are plenty of ways to disprove (or "contradict") Christianity. The simplest of which is to provide a natural explanation for the Resurrection which fits the available evidence and is more plausible than the supernatural alternative.

            I wish I'd seen this four years ago. I'd have asked: What about a natural explanation for Christians believing in the resurrection which fits the available evidence and is more plausible than the resurrection's actual occurrence?

          • Paul

            Hello friend, you are a very knowledgeable person, I can admit that. Even for that record all of you here who had all these discussions. But I would like to ask a personal question. Lets keep aside all religions, even atheism. As mere humans, when we look into the life of Jesus Christ, there a lot of qualities that was projected in that person. Isn't the religion Christianity means a follower of Christ (which entails becoming Christ like). I really don't see the need of an argument regarding the authenticity of the scripts or proof for the existence of such a being. Do we really care that?

            Also, for my Christian counterpart, its is pointless in having such arguments. We are defined by what we tell and do. The Religion or Faith is something that gives us an extra meaning for life. For a person who sees the world through his eyes, it would be just a movie. But for a person who see the world through his heart, enjoying the small things, helping those in need and being there for others. Lets try looking the world in that dimension rather than writing something that is hitting a concrete wall. (It Just bounces back)

            Take care and God Bless y'all!!!

          • I really don't see the need of an argument regarding the authenticity of the scripts or proof for the existence of such a being. Do we really care that?

            I care about that a lot. I cannot base my belief on documents of doubtful authenticity.

          • Paul

            Well, indeed you can talk about he authenticity of the scripts, but does that deny the fact that all the scripts that are mentioned in the bible lead you to a better understanding in life. Talk about any instances in the Bible (especially the New testament), all the messages that we have received always had a wonderful moral. I think we are not seeing the bigger picture here!

          • all the scripts that are mentioned in the bible lead you to a better understanding in life.

            That has not been my experience. I used to believe the Bible in its entirety. I found that the understanding of life that I got from it was quite inadequate.

            I think we are not seeing the bigger picture here!

            Countless Christians over many years have tried to show me the bigger picture. What they have shown me has made no sense to me.

          • Paul

            Hmm. Sounds interesting. Could you enlighten me on what part of this religious text you felt inadequate in understanding?

          • Paul

            I'm curious to hear from you now. What made you feel inadequate after reading the Bible?

          • Reading the Bible did not make me feel inadequate.

            Learning about life from sources outside the Bible made me realize that my Bible-based understanding of life was inadequate.

          • Paul

            "We do what we believe", our faith is defined through our convictions. Luke 9:62 says- Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” I'm not saying this out of any context, but what I would like to emphasize is that you haven't practiced your faith, instead you were looking at others and trying to conclude your faith through others.

            If you felt the need for a change in their understanding, then you had the complete right to correct them. We are all humans, all we try to do is to find what makes a logical sense in life. If you came to a conclusion of giving up, then I guess you haven't given your best shot in proclaiming your faith. My question to you is, what did you feel after reading the bible (exclude every human being that you met and their lives)?

          • "We do what we believe"

            And so, in order to do right, we must believe right.

            you were looking at others

            Of course I was. So do we all. No one should think that he can find all the answers to all the important questions on his own.

            My question to you is, what did you feel after reading the bible

            I felt a lot of uncertainty.

          • Paul

            I really see this is a very interesting and healthy discussion.

            "And so, in order to do right, we must believe right."
            - So you mean to say you didn't believe that the scripts didn't help you in giving a deeper meaning to you in life?

            "Of course I was. So do we all. No one should think that he can find all the answers to all the important questions on his own."
            - Fairly true, depends on how far you went to find answers.

            "I felt a lot of uncertainty."
            - The term uncertainty is far too a silly term to put forward. However, it would be great if you could explain what part of the Bible made you feel uncertain. And here I'm referring to the theological part and not the authenticity. Name any instance where you felt wrong in the bible.

          • "And so, in order to do right, we must believe right."
            - So you mean to say you didn't believe that the scripts didn't help you in giving a deeper meaning to you in life?

            That was not a comment about the Bible in particular. It was about the general relationship between beliefs and behavior.

            Its relevant to this discussion is: I cannot just presuppose that I should do what the Bible says. I must first determine whether I should believe what is in the Bible.

            depends on how far you went to find answers.

            I sought evidence to the best of my abilities, and I went where the evidence led me.

            it would be great if you could explain what part of the Bible made you feel uncertain

            All of it.

            Name any instance where you felt wrong in the bible.

            I didn't say I felt wrong. I do not equate uncertainty with wrongness.

          • Paul

            Lets take this to a lay mans terms. Suppose a person reading a book, say Harry Potter. The motive behind the person reading is purely entertainment. Once he completes, he is content with it. To an extent, he doesn't bother about who wrote it, but he thinks about the content and the conclusion he received from it.

            But for a person reading the Bible, its more than story telling, because it gives a deeper meaning to what he reads. It helps him to go deeper into ones minds and heart. From those depths one will receive a strong conviction about who he/she is and what he/she has to become. Has this happened to you? If this script is making you think about finding a meaning in life, my friend why do you worry about who wrote it?

            I have searched a lot to find answers from others seeking insights from people surrounding me. But in the end, the conclusion was derived only by myself. I even came to a conclusion of leaving aside all of this religious context and simply believe that we just live in this world because it happened to be and that there are no spiritual elements connected to it. But I felt is far too boring as what does it mean to simply live for a time period (lifetime) and die. What is the meaning behind it? Is there anything beyond this? These were my questions, which i expect you to shed light to. Yes I agree it is beyond mine or any human understanding. But all it entails is what we project now is what comes back in the end.

            So if you are a atheist, how would you conclude the meaning of your life?

          • Paul

            Lets take this in laymans terms, suppose a person is reading Harry Potter. He reads the book for entertainment. His main motive is to find fun in reading it. And once read he conclude with that fantasy. He doesn't bother about who wrote it and what language has he/she used for coming to a conclusion.

            However, for a person who is reading a spiritual text, his main motive is to travel into the depths of his/her mind to find ones true self and purpose. The New Testament refers to Jesus Christ who showed that there is still a possibility to live a holy life and to love one another. I'm sure no one reads any such scriptural text for entertainment. So on that note, I would like to ask you, why would you even bother about who wrote it?

            Now for the part of seeking evidence, I too have been seeking answers for a long time. Discussing with people trying to understand the deeper meaning. Certain times it was far more difficult to get an answer and yes it is really frustrating. There were even instances where I have felt of letting go of all religious context and only believe in a being that just happened to live in this world for a lifetime (say 70 years). A concept as in no controls, no bonds and just live a life which just ends up into a 6 foot grave. But then it struck me, isn't that far too silly or even stupid to think that your life just ends there? Isn't there a greater meaning in life?

            When a person lives with a family, or a community that is bonded in love and sacrifice, there I found a new meaning. And the Bible only teaches us that same principle. To live a life in communion, understand each other and give your best to others without expecting anything in return. And in the end when you are at end of your lifetime, you will be content with what you have done.

            Now for the story after that I think we all are excited to experience it.

          • Michael Murray

            And the Bible only teaches us that same principle. To live a life in communion, understand each other and give your best to others without expecting anything in return.

            Many believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God and has conquered death by Resurrection and that those who believe in Him and behave in the correct way will live for all eternity in Heaven in His presence. For these people it matters if what the Bible says is true or false and therefore it matters when it was written, who wrote it, who translated it, who selected the stories that are in it or were omitted from it etc.

          • However, for a person who is reading a spiritual text, his main motive is to travel into the depths of his/her mind to find ones true self and purpose.

            I believe "spiritual" is just another word for "religious." I don't believe in any religion, and you're not showing me any reason to suspect I'm mistaken.

            I'm sure no one reads any such scriptural text for entertainment. So on that note, I would like to ask you, why would you even bother about who wrote it?

            If I'm not reading for entertainment, then I'm reading for information. I care about who wrote it because I care about whether the information is reliable.

          • Paul

            "I don't believe in any religion, and you're not showing me any reason to suspect I'm mistaken."
            - If you were a person who believed the Bible in its entirety, your main motive behind reading the Bible would be only to know more about the spiritual sense. And it would never be for entertainment. So on that note I really see that you may have to rethink your principles on why you had to leave your faith.

            So you say you don't believe in religions, do you have a better conclusion for the meaning in living a life?

          • do you have a better conclusion for the meaning in living a life?

            I have a conclusion that works for me. That is as good as it has to be. Whether it is better than anyone else's is beside the point.

      • AshleyWB

        Absolutely not, because it makes no sense to arbitrarily assign human characteristics to a transcendent being that exists beyond our understanding. Of course this is a problem with many statements about gods. For example, religious believers of any faith have no reason to believe their god is being honest with them. If a universe-creating omnipotence wants to mislead you, it's going to do so and there is nothing you can do to detect that.

        • Randy Gritter

          Is He completely beyond our understanding? The argument is that ancient religions did understand God to some degree. They got some things wrong but they got many things right. They had the notion of gods who would lie and gods who were trustworthy. God revealed Himself in a special way through Abraham, Moses, and eventually Jesus still we all have some sense of Him even today.

          • Rationalist1

            Imagine in another 3000 years how are concept of God will have changed. I think we're even seeing the hint of it in changing societal trends now.

          • Doug N

            Rationalist1
            That's the key words -- 2000 years after Jesus and many more thousands after Abraham you THINK we are seeing a HINT of it.
            The changing societal trends verify what the scripture teaches. We do have clearer translations.

          • AshleyWB

            No matter what your religion, you have no way of judging the author of your faith's supposed revelations. Your god is not a person; it cannot be judged as one. A claim that it is trustworthy or that it is deceptive can never be substantiated, because you "know" only those aspects of its nature which it has chosen to reveal.

          • John Graney

            I think St. Thomas has a decent proof for why the Creator must be perfect. I'm not extremely familiar with it.

            In any case, we all know that the Devil is super-trustworthy.

          • I think St. Thomas has a decent proof for why the Creator must be perfect.

            I can picture what "the prefect" is in abstract thought, but what do you think that means in the real world?

          • Doug N

            Metaphysically speaking, perfect for us humans would be to subject ourself to the power/intelligence/love that dwells in the eternal non things that define all things through HIs expressed image who was born of a woman and died for our sins.

          • Doug N

            The Author of my faith's revelations has given me enough proof and evidence to discern. He actually came as a person.

            Whatever I ask our eternal uncreated father to draw attention to or locate Messiah He does. I'm well aware I am no match for the prince of the power of the air on my own power. If I was listening to him he could deceive me.
            My focus is the power/intelligence/love that dwells in the eternal/ultimate non things that define all things (ultimate stillness, silence and darkness [ie non wave] being 3 aspects I'm aware of).
            The prince of the power of the air can reflect off of all matter that is created and in motion but has no rest on the eternal non things.
            The prince of the power of the air has a lot of power over the temporal but not to my eternal soul that is kept by Messiah.

      • Liz Litts

        I'll go with those three anytime--The 'Jesus myth" is a myth for those who deny the truth.

      • M. Solange O’Brien

        No. Why would we expect god to foreshadow this event?

      • a_no_n

        It's far more likely that a bunch of unimaginative monks just borrowed stories from the Pagans and cobbled them together into a working religion.

        • Doug N

          More likely even though there is no evidence it's from Pagan myths?

    • The Saint

      It is a fair assessment to assume that the Jesus myth was copied from older pagan myths; the immaculate conception, the blood sacrifice, and the global-cleansing flood were all done before the advent of christianism. It would be too much of a coincidence that there are similarities.
      There were some ten deities who were born by immaculate conception and they predate Jesus.
      BTW, the 'golden rule" (do unto others...) was first postulated by Confucius 500 years before the alleged Christ.
      There is nothing original in christianism.

    • The Saint

      Yes, it could be coincidence that several deities who were born by immaculate conception, offered themselves in a blood sacrifice so that followers could have vicarious salvation and they predate the Jesus character; oh, and the global-cleansing flood concept also, coincidently, predates the one in the bible.

    • Barry Coleman

      "suggesting that there might have been influences along with way based on pre-existing myths common to that part of the world is still a fair point to make."

      Also that maybe Christianity influenced paganism and people have it backwards.

      For example all the reports of Dyonisius "turning water into wine" postdate Christianity, which many scholars take as a sign that - although the Dyonisius myth is older than Christianity - that particular feature was copied FROM Christianity.

  • Andre Boillot

    "Isis managed to retrieve all of Osiris’s body parts except for his phallus, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by catfish. (I’m not making this up)."

    Ok, you'll have to admit that, in a piece that is going about debunking the parallels between the two stories - both filled with otherwise fantastic miracles - it's quite funny that the author would presume total disbelief from his audience on this one point. As if this were the one part that strained credibility :)

    • Rationalist1

      Many Catholic Churches, up to even this century, claim to have a relic of the Holy Prepuce.

      • Longshanks

        Oh jeez, if we want to go down the relic isle, we'll be here all day guys.

    • josh

      Guess he should have girded up his loins.

    • Brandon Maynard

      Yeah, Christians are pretty unintelligent, no matter how good their grammar is.

      • Doug N

        Prove it Brandon Maynard

        • Brandon Maynard

          Lol they believe a magic man in the sky sent himself to earth on a suicide mission to save us from himself. You really need more proof than that?

          • Doug N

            Yes. I do.

          • Brandon Maynard

            Why?

          • Doug N

            Because I have proof otherwise and don't accept the mocking of fools.

          • Doug N

            I know the power/intelligence/love that dwells in the eternal ultimate non things that define all things sent His only begotten son to die to heal the separation from the eternal of those who stand under him. I think it's far above your awareness to understand which is why you mock but perfectly logical and reasonable.

          • Brandon Maynard

            Lol ok buddy.

  • primenumbers

    Great article. The links between the character of Jesus and Horus are tenuous. However the most interesting part is here: "(I’m not making this up)" where the deeply held religious convictions of the ancient Egyptians are mocked, yet as religious beliefs the ancient Egyptians used the same epistemology of faith that modern day Christians use to come to their religious beliefs. This is yet more evidence that faith is a very poor epistemology.

    • primenumbers, your insinuation that modern Christians ground their faith on an "epistemology of faith" is untrue, as this very website attests. Even a few weeks in, we have 40+ articles, and none argue for God or any particular Christian doctrine through faith alone.

      • primenumbers

        I'm talking about faith as the means to which you come by your religious knowledge. And it doesn't have to be through "faith alone", but faith filling in the gap between minimal or equivocal evidence and a firm belief.

        We can agree that the religious beliefs of the ancient Egyptians are laughable though. What is so different about the beliefs of Mormons or Scientologists? With Christianity we don't have good enough evidence to believe, and the gap between that evidence and belief is filled by faith, and it's that filling the epistemological gap with faith that I'm talking about.

        • primenumbers, again your comment is full of curious assumptions about Christian epistemology. First, there are significant epistemological differences between Christians, Mormons, Egyptians, and Scientologists. For one, the latter two do not rely on historically falsifiable claims. The existence of Horus at a particular time and place is not claimed as it is with Jesus.

          Second, you argue "the gap between...evidence and belief [is] filled by faith."

          I somewhat agree. It's true that logic, reason, and empirical evidence can only take the Christian so far. Those things alone cannot reveal the fullness of Christian belief. However, they can take him a long. They can prove God exists; can affirm his eternal, omnipotent, and creative nature; can support the historical veracity of the Resurrection; and more. But beliefs like the Trinity and the divinity of the Church can only be discerned through Divine Revelation.

          That said, I take issue with the way you're using terms. You insinuate that on one side we have "evidence" and on the other side "belief." But the two are not of the same kind. Belief comes through analysis of the evidence--it's not the opposite pole of evidence.

          • primenumbers

            The Mormons do rely on historically falsifiable claims, and we can both agree that they are indeed false claims. What is different with Christianity is that those claims are nearly 2000yrs ago rather than 200 and we don't have good enough evidence to believe either are actually true. With Mormonism we do have good evidence to believe they are false, but with Christianity we don't actually have enough evidence to completely falsify, but we do have some good evidence pointing in that direction like the large-scale miraculous claims that are not evidenced in the contemporary historical record. I can well accept an answer for the historicity of Jesus that "we just don't know", whereas I can go even further with Mormonism (vastly helped by it being recent history).

            I'm not suggesting belief is opposite to evidence. We start with evidence and if there's enough evidence we can form a justified belief. If there's not enough evidence (or a balance of evidences leading neither one way or the other) we can say "I don't know", and if there's strong disconfirming evidence we can say "no, I don't believe". I do think it is faith that takes you from "I don't know" to "belief" when there's not enough evidence to justify that belief.

            "They can prove God exists; can affirm his eternal, omnipotent, and creative nature; can support the historical veracity of the Resurrection; and more" - no, here you're using faith to go to beliefs way beyond what the evidence can actually show. We really don't have enough historical evidence to show Jesus, or that there was a resurrection.

            "But beliefs like the Trinity and the divinity of the Church can only be discerned through Divine Revelation" - agreed that these are most entirely faith based.

          • primenumbers, your whole first paragraph is responding to something I never said. Reread my comment. I claimed the "latter two" (i.e. Egyptians and Scientologists) made historically unverifiable claims, not the Mormons. My aim was to show one difference that countered the idea that we can lump all four belief systems into the same epistemological group.

            However, though I didn't comment on it, the differences beteween Christianity and Mormonism are vast, though admittedly most of it concerns the veracity of Divine Revelation.

            Finally, you claim "We really don't have enough historical evidence to show Jesus, or that there was a resurrection."

            Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're claiming that there is no historical evidence that Jesus existed, you're be on the extreme fringe of historical scholarship. Even most atheist and agnostic historians verify Jesus' existence, including Dr. Bert Ehrman.

            Regarding historical evidence for the Resurrection, let's table that topic for now because we'll be having a series of posts on that issue coming up here. I'll look forward to your comments on those posts!

          • primenumbers

            Brandon indeed you did mention that the Egyptians and Scientologists don't make historical claims, which is why I went to discuss the Mormons and Christians that do make historical claims. But historical claims is just one area where faith is used to find religious beliefs. You mention the concept of the Trinity for example, which is not a historically falsifiable belief and we've agreed it's faith based. All religions will use a mix of things, ranging from historical events to rather more pure faith based beliefs. In all the cases, the "faith" part, the part that takes you from what evidence for that belief there is (which could be ranging from "someone told me" to "I witnessed a miracle") to a full belief.

            "but if you're claiming that there is no historical evidence that Jesus existed, you're be on the extreme fringe of historical scholarship" - that's not what I'm claiming. I'm saying that there's not enough evidence to show such a character as Jesus existed. I'm not aware of enough evidence to show he didn't exist either. We really just don't have enough evidence either way to come to a firm conclusion. As for historical scholarship, they do tend to go with Jesus being (one of many) messianic Jewish preachers of the period, but they don't put the religious claims of Jesus in as part of history. The Jesus as myth discussions are rather fascinating, but it's also frustrating seeing the early history of Christianity almost entirely through the filter of early and later Christianity. I'd dearly like to read the lost works of the early critics of Christianity, but all we have left are the fragments preserved in the Christian responses to them, for instance.

            "Regarding historical evidence for the Resurrection" - good idea. It's a topic worthy of it's own thread.

            As for your mention earlier "It's true that logic, reason, and empirical evidence can... ...show God exists; affirm his eternal, omnipotent, and creative nature" - I also put that in the faith based category. I know you have a thread going on logical proofs for God, but it's rather unwieldy to have 20 proofs. I suggest you pick which you suggest is the strongest of them and present that for discussion. I think you'll get a better discussion going that way.

          • Thanks for the feedback regarding the last point. The goal of the "20 Proofs" article was not to provide an exhaustive defense of each of those proofs, but to show skeptics (and curious Catholics) that strong philosophical and scientific arguments exist for God's existence.

            We're planning to devote much more space and thought to each of the arguments in time, especially the cosmological arguments.

          • primenumbers

            Brandon, arguing for your side for the minute: a vast number of proofs don't bolster each other (psychologically speaking). What people do is look for the low-hanging-fruit, and attack the weakest proof and dismiss the rest accordingly. If you want to make a strong logical case for God, pick your best and don't include things like Pascal's Wager (for example).

          • Rationalist1

            Plus in a religion whose founder claims that truths that were hidden from the wise and available to all should have to resort to philosophical proofs accessible only to the educated seems contradictory. To me a demonstration of a simple pure faith that "could move mountains" and that when asked for a fish, doesn't give a serpent would suffice.

          • Rationalist1, if you read the verse in context which you quote, it's clear Jesus was referring not to the merely "wise" but to the intellectually proud.

            Regarding "moving mountains," this was a rhetorical device. Catholics don't read all of Jesus' words literalistically like many Fundamentalists.

          • Rationalist1

            The verses immediately prior to Matthew 11:25 refer to towns where Jesus' miracles were performed and they did not repent. That's not intellectually proud, that's being obstinate.

          • Rationalist, first I hope you realize the irony of an atheist trying to explain to a Catholic how Catholics should interpret the Bible. I don't say that as an argument, but as an observation.

            Second, if you read earlier in both Matthew 11 and Luke 10 you'll see Jesus referring to these townspeople as "wolves" and people who have ears but don't hear. The imagery is meant to suggest that even though miracles are performed in front of them, they choose not to believe due to pride and obstinance.

            It's not, however, as you were suggesting. That God "hid" himself from a large group of people and only revealed himself through special knowledge to the educated. This is a heresy the Church rejected in the first century known as Gnosticism.

          • Rationalist1

            And Brandon, just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I don't know anything about Catholicism. As you will find, most atheists come from a religious background and tend to a great deal about the religion they left behind. And I also don't say that as an argument, but as an observation.

          • I never said you "don't know anything about Catholicism." Now you're just putting words into my mouth. I only observed the strangeness of an atheist trying to tell a Catholic how Catholics should understand the Bible.

          • Rationalist1

            You said it was ironic. In a sense it is, but not unexpected. I've corrected a Catholic once on this board and many others on points of Catholic teaching. I don't believe it but I do know it.

          • Rationalist1

            We'll it's just as well that "moving mountains" was a rhetorical advice as there in no evidence that prayer has enacted one physical change in this world. Although as my Christian Science friend says, it's the spiritual healing that's more important.

          • Anon knee mouse

            Christian apologetics do not have to resort to philosophical proofs to be effective. It is only necessary to help the "educated" unlearn what they think they know by asking tough questions and engaging in dialogue. In my experience I find that the "uneducated" often have an easier time with faith.

          • "What people do is look for the low-hanging-fruit, and attack the weakest proof and dismiss the rest accordingly."

            Which of course is intellectually dishonest and contrary to our aim here at Strange Notions which is the pursuit of what's true. I simply can't help that reaction. For the sake of argument, assume 19 of Dr. Kreeft' 20 "ways" were false. Would the intellectually honest person then assume the twentieth is necessarily false?

          • primenumbers

            Brandon, that's why I mentioned the psychology of it. Indeed it's wrong to assume that the rest of the arguments are false because you've found a problem with one of them. But that's not how people think, and if you're presenting a case, it's best not to allow people to even go that route - present your best case only.

            Now, on the other hand I was tech editing a book and I found the 1st chapter full of errors. It wasn't wrong of me to assume that similar errors would be made through the rest of the book and hence ask for a double-fee from the publishers up-front as I knew it would take an awful lot longer than normal to do a proper job the tech edit. (of course, for this to be analogous to your 20 arguments, they'd all have to come from the pen of the same person)

          • Michael Murray

            Which of course is intellectually dishonest and contrary to our aim here at Strange Notions which is the pursuit of what's true.

            Perhaps attacking on the basis of the weakest link is dishonest but there is also the question of optimizing the expenditure of time. There is an enormous amount of information available and an enormous number of claims going on the internet about all kinds of topic. Anyone who wants to stay sane has to do some filtering up front. If you've looked at a few arguments of this kind and found them wanting then it's quite sensible to reject the rest.

          • primenumbers

            Oh, and I just realize there's a rather BS pun in the title of this article "Horus Manure" which rather demeaning to the ancient Egyptian religious beliefs. It also fits into my argument above that what appears to be a laughable religious belief to a Catholic is still a belief that used faith. It doesn't make sense to get bogged down in the nuances of what people believe - what is vastly more interesting and important is why they believe them.

          • It has nothing to do with mocking the Egyptian religious beliefs and has everything to do with the Parallelomania with which people talk about this topic.

          • primenumbers

            So calling a god of the Egyptians horse manure - BS - is not mocking?

          • That's not what the joke is aimed at. It's a pun aimed, not at Horus or his followers, but at the people who think Horus = Jesus.

            Whether or not the pun was effective/ in good taste is not something I'll defend or attack. Simply saying that I'm sure if Sorenson knew any Horus devotees who were offended he would apologize for the misunderstanding.

            And please. All religions make fun of others, and atheists make fun of all religions. This is a silly point to get on a high horse about.

          • primenumbers

            Oh yes, I do make fun of religious beliefs - all of them without bias. I just see it as somewhat hypocritical when a religious person criticizes the whacky beliefs of another while holding equally whacky beliefs themselves.

          • But to say that two exclusionist religions can't make fun of each other? I don't know how you get to interpose yourself in the middle of that. If Horus had any followers, I'm sure they'd make priest-pedo jokes.

            Seriously: "You all have silly beliefs, so it's offensive when you make fun of each other." That's condescending, paternalistic, and so out of place. Again, you're being simultaneously faux-offended and superior. It's unbecoming.

          • primenumbers

            Of course, they can and do make fun of each other. This doesn't stop me perceiving it as hypocritical though.

            ""You all have silly beliefs, so it's offensive when you make fun of each other."" - but that's not what I said. I'm not taking offence, I'm perceiving hypocrisy.

            I'm not getting "faux-offended and superior." - and if you catch me expressing whacky beliefs, call me on it - I expect nothing less.

            My whole argument here is not about what you believe, but why you believe it. I think that the religious beliefs of the ancient Egyptians (beliefs the author of the article finds humorous) had a strong component of faith, as do religious beliefs today, and that although we can see clearly how faith is an unreliable epistemology in the case of Egyptians (or Muslims, or Mormons or Scientologists etc.) we find it hard to see in the case of our own beliefs (and yes, I include myself there too) because of the basic cognitive biases that are common to us all.

          • And like I said, I'm not going to die on a hill defending the pun. But it's a pun. Aimed at the Jesus/Horus connection and not at Horus. Did it really have to be brought in at all to a discussion?

          • primenumbers

            As I mentioned, the laughable nature of other people's beliefs is part of the argument I'm making on how faith is unreliable epistemology.

          • It's a very weak part. Something is funny when it contradicts our expectations (there are other elements of humor, I suppose, but this seems to be the relevant one here). But just because it contradicts our expectations doesn't mean it's false.

            The fact that God became man, died for all men to redeem them, and rose from the dead is absurd, perhaps even laughable to the non-Christian. But that in no way addresses its veracity.

            The fact that Osiris' penis was eaten by a catfish if absurd, even laughable to the non-Ancient Egyptian. But that fact has no bearing on its veracity.

            I hope the other parts of your argument are better.

          • primenumbers

            No, religious beliefs are not false because they're funny. That is not my argument at all. Religious beliefs, like those of the ancient Egyptians are, I think we can agree, false. There was no such Horus, and the stories about Horus are untrue - yet they were the deeply held beliefs of the ancient Egyptians. They held them through means of faith. My argument is that if if we can clear see that faith leads to false beliefs, and has lead to false beliefs throughout history, why can't we see that faith is also unreliable when it comes to our own beliefs? It's not the nature of the beliefs that matters at all - be they serious or laughable, but the means by which people come to those beliefs - faith - that I'm arguing about, and I'm saying quite distinctly that faith is a very unreliable epistemology.

          • Rationalist1

            It also leads to false beliefs now. There are some extremely intelligent, sincere, educated, prayerful people now who believe, what all of us would agree, are totally false faiths. Julia Sweeney left her Catholic faith when she realized that how could she discount Mormonism as a made up religion yet not her Catholic religion.

          • primenumbers

            Absolutely. There's a vast number of false beliefs held today - from anti-vaxxers and young earth creationists, to UFO believers. Although the range of beliefs is vast and varied, they all stem from the same set of cognitive biases, of which faith is a manifestation.

          • Longshanks

            For my part, I don't mind letting the pun slide.

            Tweaking religious sensibilities of any kind never seems like all that bad of an idea to me.

          • Now, objectively, how cute is your baby, really?

          • primenumbers

            I can only tell you how subjectively cute he is, which is very. I'm sure you could come up with an objective cuteness metric based on ratios of head size to body size, and eye size to head size though.

          • I can only tell you how subjectively cute he is, which is very.

            I take that as a tautology brought to us by Natural Selection (else our species would not have survived and we would not be having this conversation), and direct evidence for Darwin. However it is also why it is no surprise to me that religions will ridicule each other all the while feeling it is unfair, when on the receiving side of such.

          • To be clear, the "manure" pun was in reference to the Horus/Jesus connection, as the subtitle makes clear, not to Horus himself.

          • Rationalist1

            Just us "notorius atheists" who practice "scientism" who are sensitive to main calling. Christians have been assured by their founder that being berated for his sake is akin to a badge of honour so perhaps they are less sensitive to it. Either way, I won't do it.

          • primenumbers

            R1, remember we're "strident militant atheists".

          • Rationalist1

            That's true. But i get "grumpy" when I hear that.

          • Rationalist, you are aware that when we mentioned "notorious atheist" in the Antony Flew post, we were quoting from the subtitle of his own book, right?

            And "scientism" isn't meant to be perjorative. It's just a word chosen to describe a particular ideology which overemphasizes science, just as "americanism" or "capitalism."

          • Rationalist1

            If it's okay to call an atheist notorious, is it okay for me to call the Pope Emeritus, a notorious Catholic. Just because he used it doesn't mean you should.

            And scientism, a constructed word that isn't in the dictionary, only a faithist would save it wasn't pejorative.

          • Jon Sorensen

            No, I was not mocking the Egyptians.

          • Jon Sorensen

            Exactly. I am actually fascinated by the ancient Egyptians.

          • Rationalist1

            Agreed. People lived, died and organized their lives around their belief in Horus. Just because like so many religions it's defunct it's no reason to disparage them.

          • primenumbers

            As humans, they were as susceptible to the very same cognitive biases that we are, and hence had the the same issues with using faith as an epistemology as we would. It's not their fault they believed thing which we now find humorous, just very human. I don't see the same excuse applying today though where we have a very good understanding of cognitive biases and how they will lead to us forming untrue beliefs.

          • Michael Murray

            cosmological arguments.

            Hopefully you will find a cosmologist somewhere to contribute to this. I'm not that keen on philosophers doing physics.

          • Brandon: Please do be sure to get in touch with me if you need cosmologists to address the question of how much of cosmology consists in philosophy :-)

          • marcus

            If you go back historically, and possible into the future, you will find that the statement:

            "...claiming that there is no historical evidence that Jesus existed, you're be on the extreme fringe of historical scholarship."

            Is not true. The great majority of humanity does not have one opinion or another about Jesus' existence because the character is not part of their faith. Most humans on this planet will say that they heard he is real but they dont know and even more will say they don't care because he is not important to them. The world is actually not all Christian nor do they speak English.

        • Doug N

          When I first hoped in what I read in the Bible I did not have the proof I do now but I saw enough evidence and had enough understanding that the proof eventually came.
          Faith is the understanding of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The evidence is logical and reasonable and overwhelming.

      • Guest

        How about "Modern Christians derive much of their theology from an epistemology of divine revelation?" Would that be inaccurate?
        Never mind, you answered this below. I'll remove this comment due to redundancy.

        ~Jesse Webster

    • I find value here in a process that is like two polishing stones rubbing against each other. The claims that just can't be supported from evidence are quickly ground down. I don't want skeptics falling for ad hoc dismissals that are as lacking in evidence as what is being dismissed. Hopefully what is left over are arguments that can stand general scrutiny.

      Stories about procreation between divine beings and humans (almost always female humans) are common in mythologies, so there is no surprise there. There is even one in Genesis 6:1-4. Different branches of early Christianity had different ideas about how to handle the concept of deification re Jesus, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the pagan traditions of the Greek speaking community providing the context, would be influential. However, a direct copying from Horus is not supportable, and I don't see as likely.

      As for Egyptians being mocked, well ... ah ... no I think I better not go there.

  • Meta-N

    Jon - The phenomena you discussing is known as Parallelomania. A trap that some atheists fall into.

    Additional Info on Horus vs. Jesus; Richard Carrier did an excellent write up on this topic, complete with many links. Here you go http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/294

    This is a must read item. Lots of supporting details.

    Enjoy!

    • Meta-N, great comment. Thanks! I'm glad you're aware that you can baptize people in emergency situations, even if you're an atheist. You only have to will to do what the Church does in baptism.

      However, I'm not so sure about the beer claim. Beer is certainly not valid in ordinary circumstances, and I don't think it's acceptable in emergency situations either. Did you hear this on the radio or read it somewhere?

      • Rationalist1

        Pope Gregory IX in the 13th century banned beer baptism.

        • Rationalist, I'm familiar with that. Which is why I'm skeptical beer could be used in emergency baptisms.

          • Rationalist1

            I was once told one could use sand.

          • It is difficult for me to imagine that if beer is the only available liquid, and an emergency baptism is warranted, God would not allow baptism by beer to "take." I think perhaps what is behind the confusion as to what is water and what is not is some very old notions about what makes a substance what it is. Beer is a mixture of a small amount of alcohol, a small number of flavoring agents, and 90+ percent water. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to look at beer as flavored water for the purposes of baptism.

            I suspect that many discussions of what may and may not be used for baptism use an outmoded concept of what makes a substance what it is. Muddy water is considered water by Aquinas, but fruit juice is not considered water. But of course everyone today now knows that fruit juice is mostly water. I suspect Aquinas didn't know that. Suppose I take two quarts of water and add a packet of Kool-Aid. Have I actually transformed water into Kool-Aid any more than putting mud into water transforms water into something other than water? I certainly don't think so.

            Aquinas basically seems to be saying that if you wouldn't call it water, it's not water. So you would call muddy water "water," but you would call orange juice "fruit juice." But of course who you are and what your circumstances are determine what you would call things. If I am in the desert and dehydrated, and a medical team comes along and says I've got to have water soon or I will die, they aren't going to say, "He's a goner. All we have is orange juice, and he needs water." Under those circumstances, orange juice is just as much water as muddy water is water. The only thing that turns water into not-water is something that causes the two atoms of hydrogen and the one of oxygen to be altered into some other combination of atoms.

      • I thought you could use any liquid that was primarily water?

        • Randy Gritter

          So Bud Lite would be OK?

          • Michael Murray

            Wikipedia says "Urine is principally water."

            I do recall from my early days at school being taught we could baptise people from puddles and the like. Pity that part of Australia was drought prone.

          • Wikipedia says "Urine is principally water."

            Michael, why pester them about the details?

          • Michael Murray

            Someone mentioned Bud Lite so I guess urine sprang to mine.

          • Someone mentioned Bud Lite so I guess urine sprang to mine.

            Your what? Oh dear.

          • Michael Murray

            Oops. Unfortunate typo.

          • ;-)

      • Meta-N

        Brandon - I think the show is called Catholic Answers Live. It's on AM radio 1060 in the Boston area. Yes, the very knowledgeable host went into great details (lots of prior work on these issues where discussed) on which liquids can be used in an emergency situation. Beer is not the first choice (emergency use only), preferably light beer if I remember correctly. I also seem to recall a bit of humor with the beer option. A serious issue none the less. Other liquids like wine are definitely not OK.

        Did you read the Richard Carrier blog article? Lots of additional material to support Jon's post.

        Thank you!

    • Victor

      Hey Meta-N, when I clicked on http://freethoughtblogs.com/ca... all me, myself and i found was http://freethoughtblogs.com/?s=ca...&search_404=1 so where did "I" go wrong NOW?

      I hear YA! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUllo9XM_oo

      Go Figure! :)

      http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2013/05/pulp-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-71025

      Peace

  • Octavo

    This is my favorite article on this site.
    Thank you!
    ~Jesse Webster

  • Victor

    Jon! "I'M" sorry that "I" can't spent too much time on this so called "Horus" but let me assure and just tell you that parallel speaking, we gods know this character as simply "H" and long story short, "IT" is all about the final "Harvest god race" and you either win "or" you simply remain an ordinary (us) commonly known as "Horus".

    We gods can't spend any more "TIME" on but this but if YA want to know more just check with my secretary who is running around with this guy claiming to be a Jester but don't be fooled by his godly engineering genius ways. http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2013/05/pulp-catholicism/
    Got to go NOW! :)
    Peace

  • Victor

    Great post!

    I only wish that the hackers would allow me to read all of the comments NOW!
    Go Figure! :)
    Peace

    • Victor

      I hear YA sinner vic!

      That's "IT" Victor!

      Gall, "I" mean,,,, no, no .... Don't says "IT"...... Was just going to say Gull darn "IT".......
      Go Figure NOW! :)
      Peace

  • Chris Steel

    Yeshua (Jesus) was foreshadowed throught the scriptures begining in Genesis 3 (the sacrificial lamb)- In Isaiah 53-7 God gives exact description of the Messiah that he is sending (due to the fall of man) and then John 1-11 tell us EXACTLY why they missed him - NOW here's how this ties into the article - Hasatan the devil was kicked out of heaven and he took a third of the angels with him! They came to earth and bred with women - read Genesis 6 and Job - and this is why God had to send the flood - God was resetting the Gene Pool through Noahs genetic line -Satan knows what Gods plan is for us, so what he did was present himself to humans back then (preflood, but still to this very day) as GOD!! Satan is a counterfit, he copied Gods plan for our salvation and had the acient people worshipping him (and still to this very day)! He knew that God was sending his son (to void out the Genectic connection) so he is the reason why there are multiple stories that mimic the true story of Yeshua's coming and that is why Judah missed the messiah - Satan walks this earth and has for milenia, the Isis Osiris story is meant to throw you off, BUT if people would just read the scriptures its not that hard to see - Please read, and remember, Hastan has been around eons - he's had ample time to get his story to confuse the truth and thats all he wants to do is confuse and its easy for him because people do not read, they only follow. Confusion turns people away from searching out the truth altogether. Now if this was all myths, ask yourself, why do the heads of our nations worship these dieties? How many of you know that ROME ran with the name Jesus only because they were already worshipping Zeus - it was for control - control of the people thru religion - they use the Catholic church which is why you always see those sun discs over their heads - and those big hats they wear, those are hats from acient babylon - the priests of Baal - they are sun worshippers - why? Because Satan tricked them into worshipping him - also the sun was a symbol of the dogstar Sirius - which also ties into Satan - its all in the scriptures, you just have to read and ask God to reveal some things to you! May you be blessed and please dont take my word, read for yourself!

  • I have posted this link to a lecture by historian, Richard Carrier, as part of another comment on another thread, but realized that it also belongs here because he also shoots down many of the bad claims to parallel mythology, as does Jon Sorensen, in the OP above.

  • Thumper’s Mom

    If people just blindly accept what Bill Mahr professes to be true, why should we be surprised that others have pulled off the same thing. Some people delight in thinking that they've cornered people

  • ksed11

    The NT writers were Jews (and Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee). And no Jew/Pharisee living between the Maccabean revolt and the destruction of the Temple in 70CE would have employed a pagan god for much of anything. The Jewish antipathy towards paganism was fierce.

    In addition, it’s important to focus on CRITICAL similarities, not incidental ones. Incidental and vague similarities can be seen between almost anyone. One can use incidental similarities to “prove” that JFK was actually based on Lincoln. The critical, central Christian message about Jesus was focused on his Lordship over all creation, his voluntary sacrificial death, and his physical resurrection. Incidental elements include such things as the number of disciples, his date of birth, etc.

    So most of the comparisons cited by Christ myth theorists are merely incidental.

  • newenglandsun

    Check out the alincolnism page on facebook.

  • sinner

    So, what if it is true? What if Jesus is a reincarnation of Horus? The only reason that people would have an issue with this is if they also; blindly believe what an institution tells them. It would only shatter the walls of the religious institutions and their brainwashing of the masses. People cannot think for themselves anymore. Now that the catholic church has come forward in the last year or so and totally changed its stance on ufo's and aliens.... they expect people to believe that they didn't know this all along and now they are making up some sort of "explanation" that even if aliens existed, they would still be "god's creation?"
    Jesus seemed to be a man that fought against the corrupt, legalistic rabbis and moneychangers. How can the church then justify it's rules and laws... money grubbing ways? Jesus is way beyond any institution or sect of Christianity.

  • marcus

    I find it endlessly amusing that one can criticize another for being nonobjective because their view cant be verified and then turn around and do the same thing in the opposite direction. This article is a failure.

    "Maher is only repeating things that are and believed by many people today."

    ...if that doesnt make you die from laughter then I dont know what will. Where do you suppose your own beliefs came from? Or are you going to direct me to direct evidence that Jesus actually lived? Do you have one shred of real evidence aside from belief.

    You do exactly what you claim Maher did because you also provide no supporting evidence aside from things you consider "logical." I will tell you now, that your knowledge is incomplete and thus inaccurate. You cannot defend a opinion with an opinion. This is the 21st century, not ancient Egypt. In the world today, we know that people lie, people forget, people are biased, and people were not better at any point in history. The only difference between today and back then, is today, we are more aware of what is happening due to better record keeping and communication. Thus, if you really want to extrapolate, then how about using real proven methods. What happens to a story when it is relayed verbally across 4 of 5 people? Answer, the story changes and the details become different. What happens over a few million people over thousands of years? Hmm. What happens if one of the story tellers has extreme bias towards one story or another? Hmm. What if one side had the power to destroy evidence? Rewrite their own history? You get the point.

    Good luck explaining to god that you are a good person when you yourself insult god by not using the greatest gift he gave you and no it is not the "soul." What separates us from animals is our ability to override our programming. We have a powerful brain. What you call a "soul" is just the byproduct of you character which is determined by your brain which dictates your action. In the case of modern humans, how can you claim to be moral and ethical if you dont use your greatest asset to find truth rather than simply "believe in your heart." Given the knowledge we have today compared to the past, you have no excuse but laziness. What will you tell god? "Hey dude, I dig you man! I believed in youuuu! Now where is my reward?" God asks, did you use your greatest gift to the best of your ability to do good things? How will you answer? "Well you see god, its really hard work to use my brain so instead, I just followed my heart. So thanks for the brain, but I really didnt need it." I wonder what any god might say to someone like this that lived in the 21st century. You still think he would want you anywhere near his paradise? Might as well let insects and trees into heaven. At least they used what they had to its full potential.

    You are the flip-side of the Maher coin! You are the same. And I guarantee you and any other religious person living today, that none of you will see a day in any sort of heaven given the time you live in today. You have no excuses. Learn our knowledge, and apply it.

  • Christopher todd

    Of course the Zealots will lie to cover their fake made up Jesus, There are MANY virgin birth stories that predate the klu klux Khristian story. Sorry? But You inbred folk are supposed to find what story is oldest? Then work your way up and know those that followed are a spin off. Sorry? But you people are arguing one fantasy over another. Its real easy to see that Christian fantasy inbred folklore has a lot of things from other peoples religion. *points to the age of the trinity* Track that back into time.. Just keep recycling lies acting like the "Atheists" Are the stupid ones while you people have imaginary friends. Get some logic and stop trying to dumb each other down to "Facts" Facts are UNDENIABLE! So if someone has the same stories as your god? Undeniable that its not ORIGINAL! "Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience."

  • Christopher todd

    How about this one Zealots.. There has to be data to suggest something b4 data is needed to debunk something. If science worked with imaginary data? We would be stuck like the Christians in the dark ages. Using their numbers and lies to drown the truth. What is there for your god? Nothing.. Other world lifeforms have more data to suggest than your imaginary friends. Trillions upon trillions of worlds beyond ours? But no you nuts think that is crazy.. Google "Pentagon put Christ** top of extremist list" < Zealot Conspiracy nuts = Blames the govt for dumbing people down. Demands other believe in things without proof. *Facepalm* You people just need to shut up about Atheists. You out number them but consider them a threat? Gonna start a new Christian KKK, Nazi Army, or Aryan group for atheists? Lmao.. Terrorists..

  • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

    Define virgin birth in the actual context it was written in. Does not mean she did not have sex it meant she was a young woman.

    • David Nickol

      Does not mean she did not have sex it meant she was a young woman.

      No. While it is correct that one of the "prophecies" (Isaiah 7:14) in the original Hebrew uses the word almah meaning "young woman" (who could be either a virgin or not), and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of Hebrew Scripture used by Greek-speaking Jews, including the authors of the Gospels) used the word parthenos, which specifically means "virgin," the Gospels are quite specific that Mary was a virgin. For example, Luke 1:34-35:

      34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”*
      35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

      And Matthew 1:18:

      18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph,* but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.

      I don't think it can be argued that Matthew or Luke believed Mary to be a virgin because of the "mistake" in the translation of the "prophecy" in Isaiah 7:14 in the Septuagint. The Old Testament "prophecies" were not a compiled list of passages used by people who were waiting for the Messiah and using these passages as signs. There is no Messiah predicted in the Old Testament. (The word Messiah cannot be found in the Old Testament.) The "prophecies" consist of verses seen in retrospect to have had something to do with who Jesus was. Prophets were not people who predicted the future, and prophecies were not predictions.

      Here is Isaiah 7:14

      Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign;* the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.

      The person being given a sign is Ahaz, who ruled from 735 to 715 B.C. The events are in the 8th century B.C. and are not a prediction of something to happen in the1st century A.D.

      But, nevertheless, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke specifically say Mary was a virgin and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

      • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

        Now i question the credibility of Luke and Matthew. (those aren't the only 2 books im questioning either). The name of those gospels have pure Greek origins. The stories were influenced from Egyptian Horus. Thats why Ethiopian Orthodox Christians don't deal with the New Testament.

        Immanuel was not suppose to be Jesus. Imen/Amen (just pointing that out.) But people do link Jesus with him which in that case prophecies did not get fulfilled. For example the land of milk and honey.

      • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

        I replied already but i dont see it.
        I question the credibility of Luke and Matthew. (those aren't the only ones). They are Egyptian influenced and the names have Greek origins. I know you know Jews don't deal with Jesus and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians don't either. Roman Catholics however do believe in the immaculate conception and coincidentally have a lot of traditions which have pagan origins.

        • David Nickol

          I question the credibility of Luke and Matthew.

          Why in the world would you question the credibility of two men writing—70 years after the alleged event—that a virgin conceived and gave birth?

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            It already been proven thats Luke, Matthew, Mark and
            John were entirely created by the Greeks
            Thats why i questioned it.
            A story published atleast 70 yrs after the event! come on they were passing it down by oral tradition.

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            They wrote the events 70 years after the event. If thats correct why wouldnt i question it they weren't eye witnesses. Matthew is a synopsis of another that got recorded from an oral tradition. Many stories passed by oral traditions are exaggerated and filled with myths.

            Questions: is Jesus the Head corner stone?

          • David Nickol

            I was being ironic. While I certainly believe Jesus was a real person, believing such things as the virginal conception of Jesus is a matter of religious faith, not of determining if the documentary evidence is sufficient. How can we possibly know about the conception of someone that took place over 2000 years ago? How could even those who knew Jesus personally know for sure who his father was, let alone if he had been conceived miraculously.

            To put it bluntly, there is no good reason, from a purely historical viewpoint, to believe Jesus did not have a human father. That doesn't mean there is no good religious reason.

            Questions: is Jesus the Head corner stone?

            Two thousand years after his death, over two billion people—31.5% of the world's population—consider themselves followers of Jesus, and that number is growing. Nobody else (except perhaps Muhammad at 1.6 billion, or 23.2%) even comes close.

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            A virginal conecption in the human species is impossible. That's fairytale mumbo jumbo you can see the greeks (if not them who ever was in control of publishing the doctrines) stole the concept from the story of horus and isis.

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            in fact you see the earlier symbolism in the Sumerian story of Tammuz.

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            Two thousand years after his death, over two billion people—31.5% of the world's population—consider themselves followers of Jesus, and that number is growing. Nobody else (except perhaps Muhammad at 1.6 billion, or 23.2%) even comes close.

            i wonder how much people believed in saunta claus or that carrots made you see better.

          • M. Solange O’Brien

            Argumentum ad populum? Not particularly original. And if sheer numbers are considered, almost 3/4 of the world's population doesn't buy into Jesus.

          • David Nickol

            And if sheer numbers are considered, almost 3/4 of the world's population doesn't buy into Jesus.

            The question I was answering was, "Is Jesus the Head corner stone?" Do you know what it means? I don't! I am not quite sure what an argumentum ad populum argument that Jesus was the "head corner stone" would be like.

            As for your numbers, if 31.5% of the world population believes in Jesus, then the most you can say is 68.5% does not. I think calling 68.5% "almost 3/4" is trying to make it sound like more than it is. And of course, if I was making an argumentum ad populum argument by citing how many people believe in Jesus, your response is also an argumentum ad populum, isn't it? What kind of arguing is it when you counter one alleged fallacy with your own?

            I would also point out that Jesus has a place in Islam, so whatever it means to say Jesus was the "head corner stone," if people who believe in Jesus in some way count, then you have to add together Christians and Muslims, getting 54.7% of the world population.

            But I would like to hear your argument that Jesus is not the head corner stone. On what do you base it? :)

          • M. Solange O’Brien

            The question I was answering was, "Is Jesus the Head corner stone?" Do you know what it means? I don't! I am not quite sure what an argumentum ad populum argument that Jesus was the "head corner stone" would be like.

            My point about argumentum ad populum was not directed at the Head corner stone comment. I've no idea what that means, either. Most theology uses highly specialized vocabularies that fail to find meaningful referents in the real world.

            As for your numbers, if 31.5% of the world population believes in Jesus, then the most you can say is 68.5% does not. I think calling 68.5% "almost 3/4" is trying to make it sound like more than it is.

            Of course. I should probably have said 2/3.

            And of course, if I was making an argumentum ad populum argument by citing how many people believe in Jesus, your response is also an argumentum ad populum, isn't it? What kind of arguing is it when you counter one alleged fallacy with your own?

            I'm not sure I understand your point. The reason argumentum is a fallacy is simply the logic you just offered. I was pointing out it was a fallacy, not that 2/3 unbelievers make Jesus a fable.

            I would also point out that Jesus has a place in Islam, so whatever it means to say Jesus was the "head corner stone," if people who believe in Jesus in some way count, then you have to add together Christians and Muslims, getting 54.7% of the world population.

            Not unless the Muslims believe that Jesus was the head corner stone. We still don't know what that means.

            But I would like to hear your argument that Jesus is not the head corner stone. On what do you base it? :)

            On the point that the phrase seems to be semantically meaningless. :-)

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            Thank you i didn't know when people did that it actually had a name. I'm part of the 3/4 of the world.

      • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

        Isiah 7:14

        Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin[b] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d]

        The original version of this text they use the word almah and this is young lady. you can use lexicon to translate the verse for you.

        http://biblehub.com/lexicon/isaiah/7-14.htm

        • David Nickol

          My point was that the Gospels (Matthew and Luke) both say Mary was a virgin. Mary herself says she is a virgin. I understand what the Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14 does not use a word that presumes virginity, but the Greek translation does. You are free to assume the Gospels were written to make the Greek translation of Isaiah 7:14 "come true."

          By the way, saying a virgin will conceive and bear a son (as it does in the Greek translation of Isaiah) does not necessarily mean something miraculous will occur. A young woman who is a virgin could conceive (by having sex) and give birth. Even the Greek translation doesn't require a "virginal conception."

          • Fitzroy Wills Royalty

            Its not just the virgin birth that don't match up between Isiah and the gospels of Luke and Matthew. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies. I can't stop anyone's belief, but thought this was the right place to point out certain information.

  • Eric

    Well done. Great job throwing light on a very popular modern myth of a myth.

  • Veronica Nowakowski

    You do a very good job of debunking this Zeitgeist bullshit, but, at the same time, as a follower of the Egyptian religion, I find it quite offensive how you depict Egyptian religion itself. The Egyptian priests did not believe in creatures which were half human, with animal heads - that's metaphorical, they're forces of nature. If you write something like this again, please try not to describe Djehuty as "the animal-headed god of magic."

  • Ralph Ellis

    Ralph Ellis

    Ralph released his first book in this genre in 1998; but his seminal work, King Jesus, was published in 2008. In this book, Ralph proposes that the gospel story is semi-mythical: it was based upon real events, but subsequently embellished and fictionalised by the gospel authors and editors. The proposed foundation for this semi-mythical gospel story is the history of King Izates of Adiabene, who Josephus Flavius claims was the leader the Jewish Revolt. Apparently, Josephus also calls this monarch, King Izas.

    This was followed in 2012 by a sequel, Jesus, King of Edessa. This work follows the same reasoning, but attempts to further explore and refine the historical evidence for Josephus' otherwise semi-mythical monarch, King Izas. The result is a claim that Adiabene is actually a reference to Edessa in Mesopotamia; and therefore King Izas must be King Manu VI of Edessa. So the Edessan king was called King Izas Manu, while Jesus was called King Jesus (Em) Manu-el.

    In addition, Ralph claims that the traditional crown** of the Edessan monarchs is a plaited crown of thorns, and therefore similar to the gospel description.

    Ralph

    ** Image of an Edessan king, wearing his plaited Crown of Thorns.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/Coin_of_King_Abgar_X_Phraates_of_Edessa.jpg

  • Q*

    Story Similarities aside what is more plausible
    1) A GOD that created trillions of galaxies, time and space wants humans to sing songs and pray in a magic house. In this magic house are magic candles that help your magical prayers reach this all knowing god .. ( they are led lights now )

    2) it was all made up to explain things at the time and to control people

  • Jamie Kabzinski

    This is the first skeptical article written by a religious person, the quality of which of which im am impressed. I disagree somewhat with the overall premise, but demanding that only historically verifiable peer reviewed publications by professional experts be referenced and probable fact is a sober and extremely important lesson that I wish more people understood.

    • Doug Shaver

      I don't dispute the importance of using peer-reviewed publications, but I cannot accept the bald credentialism of excluding all other sources of information.

  • ThompJ

    and yet there is archeological proof of Horus as a stone god but no archeological proof of Jesus...

  • Timothy Brock

    I just have to say you are full of crap. I have the head of Ishtar aka William Wallace and the Head of the Anunnaki Horus. I am the Timothy out of the bible and you are going to tell me your debunking the Horus and Jesus connection. You are full of crap buddy. I have Enoch you idiot and the bible profecy labels me by name and book of the bible. Timothy the one that resurrects Christ.

  • Diana Hitchens

    I find it ironic that you have a long list of requirements as to what makes a credible source.... and the Bible meets none of those requirements.

  • David Kempton

    In other words, you still believe the Jesus fairy tale, despite their eing no evidence that he ever existed. Well, that's your choice. Just please do NOT try to pass legislation that expects ME to act like I ALSO believe this. Then you are welcome to believe as you wish...

  • princeminski

    I'm highly skeptical about things supernatural, but this article is right on the beam. Atheists do themselves no favors by using silly, cherry-picked summaries of mythology to "debunk" somebody else's beliefs, a purposeless endeavor in itself.

  • Ian Harrod

    There is no more evidence that Jesus existed than Horus. Way different from actual recorded history, like the Civil War argument. We have as much actual historical information on Jesus as we do King Arthur.

  • Joe Malburg III

    If you want to believe something you will.

  • Randy Keime

    didnt moses lead the jews out of egypt? I wonder how they could of possibly had any idea about egyptian religions. The main problem with this story is they omit the Egyptians stole most of their religion from the Sumerians If you read and study all the stories with open mind its just the ruling class using God to control the masses. these people barely understood fire and thought that volcanoes and earth quakes were acts of god.

  • luckless pedestrian

    More mumbo-jumbo from the Jesus junkies.

  • RaymondSoltysek

    Oral traditions work like Chinese whispers. The similarities between
    the Bible and pre-existing religious texts and traditions cannot be dismissed. There is nothing original about Christianity; it's just
    another rag bag of age-old fairy tales.

    • Lazarus

      Let's have a friendly wager. I give you a book to read, that will show you authoritatively how and where Christianity is indeed original, and how wrong these alleged similarities are, and you in return give me any book to read.

      After that we come back and see if you are still that confident about that old rag bag. Deal?

      • RaymondSoltysek

        If the book was written by a Christian, it will be de facto tainted. It is indisputable that other religions have had virgin births, miracles, floods, plagues and risen dead. Nothing new whatsoever.

  • bsroon

    Well i appreciate the refutations and explanations of them there were times where i had to laugh.
    The reference to drawing upon the vast Egyptian history and cherry picking different era's addendums sounds EXACTLY like the post-Christ "christians" doing the same thing with Jewish history, and interpreting various verses in allegorical fashions which could be interpreted on many levels, and in many ways.
    Then to refer to eyewitness accounts of Jesus written in the Bible ( there are multiple stories regarding the crucifixion and resurrection, not to mention the entire Jesus story, which don't necessarily align without rubber borders) as facts in opposition to the accounts of the Horus stories seems the pot calling the kettle black...

    Just saying. And none of this comparison is relevant to the other parallel myths - Mithras, Krishna, etc.

  • notmike64

    Christ didn't even exist

  • There is no god – it was a cult, control, gravy train ride based on sun god scam and nothing more.
    There’s a reason ‘god helps those that help themselves': It’s the only way a non-existent god ‘can work’, and then of course – ‘It’s god’s will.’
    The ‘elite’ are and have always been sun god murderous scum in a jesus wrapper – congrats, you’re a 33rd degree mason now.
    Holy Horus: The Jesus Origin Exposed; The Real Truth About Religion and Its Origins, and Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum https://edwardmd.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/the-real-truth-about-religion-and-its-origins/

  • William Davenport

    If you have to go that far to substantiate your own personal beliefs, then have at it. If a god was involved it would be a lot clearer to the average individual.

  • God

    Hohoho, after Horus was conceived, Osiris, was never quite the same, and he was relegated to kingship in the land of the dead. Conception from a dead man? A virgin birth? close enough to show you're just trying to sway people's minds and that's Jesus Manure..I could write you a whole book about this and make you cry.

  • Michael Fornarina

    Quote from Jay Sorensen - "The title Book of the Dead comes from an Arabic label referring to the fact that the books were mostly found with mummies (cf. The Oxford Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology,"

    The book in question you mentioned is usually prefaced by the word 'EGYPTIAN 'Book of the dead --- presuming you do mean to discuss the stories and rituals from ancient Kemet (what you folks now call 'Egypt' ) a text which is actually commonly referred to as "The book of coming forth by Day "- and sir with all do respect.. using Arabic as a definition of Black AFRICAN mythology (The Book of Coming forth by Day and Horus the Christ) and the ensuing legends ;would be highly inaccurate in my opinion as Arabic is a latter day language whose Parent System is 'Egyptian' hieroglyphs, afterall we are discussing an issue from 1200 B.C. and then attempting to use a language that didn't emerge until the very earliest 301-to 400 A.D. as a definitive source would be highly un-useful and I must say un-Academic as well -- Your definition of the contents of The book of coming forth by day is (imo) far, far far from accurate -- i suggest anyone reading this article should research it for themselves..

  • Michael Fornarina

    Quote from Jay Sorensen - "The name Lazarus is actually derived from the Hebrew word Eleazar meaning “God has helped.”

    riiiight... -- This is just more flim flam and more stuff stolen from ancient Kemet -- anybody who studies these issues knows that Hebrew's Parent language is also the Egyptian hieroglyphs (which predates Hebrew by ALOT) -- this is just some turned around Egyptian Canaanite words/concepts in a sort of Anagram -- Osiris 'African name is ASAR (Azar),-- (this is common knowledge and easy to discover- and EL is the Cannanite God EL-ELYON which means 'God most High' so this is where we get this fake anagram for Osiris/Azar - Asar-El (El - e - azar) That means Osiris/Asar-El in reverse.. and yes one of the names for the Hebrew god is also EL -- but a bit of research and you will discover that our EL-ite Leadership worships the God EL as the Planet SATURN (S-T-N) which is why the Hebrew Sabbath is on Saturn's day. (Saturday) -- Some of the more Hidden meanings behind the word /name EL -- are Element and Electricity -- the name for the God of this world also known as - ElL - is also the name of the God of the two Electrical poles (Red/Positive and Blue/Negative) and God over this charged with friction world of Electrical-Duality.
    The Magnetism is represent as White so there you have it .. Red-White and Blue.Electricity and Magnetism.

    More rip-offs of the name Asar (Azar) are Lazurus which is really El-Azar-us -and in african the name Neter Wasir (another spelling of Azar) means God Almighty - Neter in 'Kemite means basically character Universe Environment -- and Azar means Sky-Father-God -- which later Azar came to be referred to as 'God Almighty' -- The Roman leader Caius Marius later wanted to be referred to as God Almighty so he changed his name to Julius C -Asar. --- (Which you Romans now spell as Ceasar) in English.,, or in America they have little African Gods called a Drug Czar -- An
    Education -Czar -- which a slick way of saying C-AZAR

  • Michael Fornarina

    Sources - EL SATURN The God of the Old Testament
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6rc8o9n-Rc

  • Michael Fornarina

    *Egypt Gods - Osiris-Asar
    http://www.touregypt.net/osiris.htm

    *I see that wikipedia has now deleted the spellings of Osiris African name ASAR/AZAR in the age of Aquarius Aquarius mottos is - ("I know') people are figuring this thing out.and they want to know real truth and not just believe ( Pisces is the age of 'I Believe; or blind faith =Jesus the Fisherman - note Jesus symbol on the backs og the modern pedestrian cars - The fish represents the age of Pisces) and some forces want to keep the real knowledge hidden so they can rule the powerless. Remember knowledge is power -- (which is why I reckon that knowledge of those two common spellings of the name Asar (Azar) were recently deleted from Wikipedia.

  • Michael Fornarina

    Pagan Symbolism in ALL major religions
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gWdHFmJJFA

  • Michael Fornarina

    Osiris and Christianity -The Christian Adoption of Egyptian Iconography, Symbolism, and Myth
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL_-U5kcXB0

  • Michael Fornarina

    The word - 'PAGAN' has also been demonized - from online Etymology dictionary
    Pagan
    'late 14c., from Late Latin paganus "pagan," in classical Latin "villager, rustic; civilian, non-combatant" noun use of adjective meaning "of the country, of a village," from pagus "country people; province, rural district,

    The word Pagan also referred to anyone living outside the Cathedral City and the jurisdiction of the Catholic Bishop -- but that definition also seems to be vanishing from the Internet -- hmm..

  • Michael Fornarina

    A correction I typed the name 'Jay' Sorensen when I meant JON Sorensen.

  • Andrew Bodlak

    Thank you, this was very useful! I will be sharing this profusely.

  • Peter Martyn

    Massey and his followers were not mentioned in my introductory course on the New Testament where we had a textbook from Perrin and Duling (and its a good textbook) and this unheard of dispute is not settled yet. Thank you for your cogent article on it.

  • I see it like this...... I trust in the claims of the bible of christianity because what we can clearly see is so about the universe and all that exist in it. Living and non-living. That said, looking at scripture, it is clear that God allows certain things to accumulate or certain situations to be so confusing or lost for the sole purpose of people seeing an eventual sign that says,"Quiet. All that you are talking about, erase those names, because I done it. I'm the one in control." or "Hey, not that many soldiers is needed. Only a few, so you know I'm the one who determines the outcome of battles." The egyptians established (I'm sure over a long period of time) a very powerful nation, but it was a greatly oppressive nation for it's people. God allowed them to be moved in such a way that they'd put together a scattered story about deities so that His name would be known by way of dethroning these supposedly great gods. He chose the oppressed people of Egypt, the Israelites and came in and basically said to pharoah and all above them, "Get up out of those chairs. They are mine--ALL OF THEM! YOU. Get up! My son is supposed to sit there. And instead, this is how they will be arranged and kept. All of these statues shall be destroyed." Even in revalations, he allows such to happen for a period of time. Allowing "the beast" to perform great wonders even in the sky so that after a time, and afterwards, whoever didn't receive the mark.

  • Mikahel

    the lies are often visible in plain site, likewise the lies on zeitgeist, they for example, are referring about the same date of Jesus birth (25th) when it is well known by anyone who studied a little that this date do not come from any first christian or jews of that time, but it comes from the Roman's cesar of that time, or a bit later time, who has fused some of the pagans's religion references with the christians believes/knowledge, so Jesus and the very first Christians never used that date, but those was adopted later, for that reason may appear similar to other pagans religion.

  • 1blueadept2

    You are trying to make the claim that comparing the two is wrong for certain reasons, and that people are cherry picking, and then you make this statement,"Not only that, but we have in the Bible actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion" This statement is not correct, and if you are the scholar you claim to be, you know that none of the Gospels were written by actual apostles and probably were not written before the year 70AD. How can you claim legitimacy if you make such statements?

  • Steve Corner

    Funny, nothing written above actually proves that a "Jesus Christ" historically existed. He's actually based on Flavius Titus, in allegorical form. Deal with it.

  • Robert Miller

    ok first thing that caught my attention was his comment - the book of the dead was not one book

    this is true

    But the Bible was not one book either

    I find this a complete attempt to use partial truth to justify beliefs

    For one the "Christians" destroyed any artifacts from Egypt that went against their views

    Let's look at the first commandment "have no other Gods before me" - is this, not an admission that there are other "Gods"

    second, the Jews had just left Egypt and 8 of the 10 commandments come from the Egyptian 42 commandments - The first commandment being an added commandment so the Jews choose which "God" they would serve as the highest "God"

    http://www.aerobiologicalengineering.com/wxk116/Maat/

    I believe in a creator and a higher power - I lost all faith any religion is of the creator

  • Jay Harris

    I UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS HARD TO ACCEPT THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR TEACHINGS ARE LIES IS A HARSH REALITY AND THAT YOU WILL GO THROUGH STAGES OF DENIAL, CONFONTATION AND SO ON BUT NEVER THE LESS, TRUTH IS TRUTH. HERE AS WRITEN IN THE BIBLE 60 PEOPLE ENTERED EGYPT AND 600,000 LEFT WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT MOSES STOLE FROM THE EGYPTIANS AND TOOK TO CANAAN AND THEN EUROPE. YES I SYMPATHISE WITH YOU BEING LIED TO FOR 2000 YEARS BUT ACKOWLEDGE THIS ANYONE OR THING LEAVING EGYPT IS OF AFRICAN DESCENT AND UNTIL YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THIS HARSH TRUTH, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW OR ACCEPT THE TRUTH. DEBUNK THAT FACT. ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND TEACHINGS ORIGINATED IN EGYPT THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA, YOUR DESCENDANTS ARE THE AKAN PEOPLE OF AFRICA. YES YOU MAY BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD AS A CHILD STILL BELIEVES IN THE EASTER BUNNY, OR THE TOOTH FAIRY BUT THIS IS AN ADULT CONVERSATION

  • greg glavinovich

    sorenson.... either = you dont know what you are talking about or you dont know how to think

    GG

  • greg glavinovich

    using passwords and logging into your system is a pain in the neck and stupid waste of time and should be eliminated/.
    High tech is irritating. The 1960s were better.

    stupid american society

  • Gene Gilmore

    Or me debunk this debunk...ROMANS and GREEKS as well as other prominent historical European countries INVADED AND COLONISED AFRICA, NAMED ALL THE COUNTRIES AFTER THEMSELVES JUST IN WE FORGOT, AND THAT IS HOW THE FUCK THEY GOT THE STORY OF RELIGION

  • calledit78

    Simple copycat story that was taken to another level. Shame of the Bible and Gospel writers to think that future human beings wouldn't figure it out. Back in Jesus times humans were very naive and could be easily fooled. Don't be so naive! Ask yourself about one magic word called: INDOCTRINATION!!! If you never heard the story/name or story about God, Jesus, etc and grew up on an island by yourself, end of story. The point of the Bibl eis to control you and try to influence you on life situations. But guess what you don't need that to be a good person. The whole idea of a soul or right from wrong feelings you have inside are from evolution. Humans are herd beings and they need to rely on one another in order to have a greater chance of survival. Those feelings are from time and experiences that happened over thousands of years to program your brain to have a better chance at survival not some magic that a so called God gave you.

  • Guice Bump

    I knew it...Jesus is the true true.

  • KennethL

    sort of missing the point here. It would be WILD if the story of Horus and the story of Jesus matched up exactly. The Roman culture out of which the Paulist version of Christianity arose was a voracious consumer of all sorts of religions......they almost never met a religion they didn't want to assimilate (except Druidism and, for awhile, Christianiity). The Romans indeed DID pick and choose the parts they liked from the various mythologies, so the ideas of virgin births, raising the Dead, human sacrifice (ultimately what Jesus' death on the cross is....), men rising into the clouds....etc. were milling around the Roman consciousness when the story of Jesus was being written. It's no wonder all these older myths made their way into the narrative.

  • Jeffrey Paul Bradt

    It is funny that Sorenson, who apparently has no expertise in a field even remotely connected with what he is writing about, according to his bio, argues that Massey had little expertise in his field.
    At least Massey had SOME.

  • Jeffrey Paul Bradt

    This article admits that the Jesus character has the same elements as the Horus character, amalgamated from bits and pieces of Horus' legend.

  • EOB

    There are many religions with a savior character with multiple similarities to Jesus. Horus is only one of them. There are so many of them that it is hard to believe that Christianity didn't adapt at least some of their stories from these older stories.

  • Hone

    Let's be real here people we just don't know, myself I believe they are good stories to make some of us feel good.

  • The Saint

    For starters, this kind of global catastrophic event would've left massive archeological evidence, yet, none exists, none.

    • Pax Humana

      How about tectonic plates and a planet that has layers that defy evolutionary strata, as well as dinosaur and human footprints existing simultaneously?

  • Cindy Aubrey

    How about we replace the word "Myth" in the public lexicon. We should replace it with "the many different ways than humanity has chosen to worship a deity." God exists or He does not. We do realize now, that humans have tried to worship God in many strange and often violent ways. Perhaps, at one point in human history, God chose to reveal himself to humans, through Jesus. I really can't prove that. No one can. But if I could create a model, that signifies pure love, it would be Jesus Christ. Myth or not.

  • sonOsamp

    Religions were invented by governments to control their people. It doesn't matter whether it's a direct copy. It's like any other industry standard, everyone copies what works. You're not going to get your slaves to do your bidding without a good guilt trip. Life is much better when you aren't praying to yourself. Do some yoga instead.

  • The Saint

    It more interesting that you believe in myths (Satan and your god are myths) and that you try to use myth to prove your myth (this is circular logic - or a logical fallacy. @disqus_UxicTrWDM4:disqus
    And you are wasting your time; I have been reading and teaching the bible for more than 40 years.
    The bible is full of errors and contradictions because its authors lacked basic editing skills and there could be no consensus among the many writers.

    • Pax Humana

      So you have been a Satan serving moron for more than 40 years then?

  • The Saint

    Curiously, you remind me of Goofy, Danald and Mickey's friend, Timing.

  • Kirk Martin

    Jesus was written into the history books some 200 years after the events were said to have happened... Now am I the only one to find that a bit strange? Or do you believe in Harry Potter also!

  • Adversary

    Personally I was interested by the start of this . Then once I realized it was written by one singular perception I skipped to comment.. I don't get how all you morons cannot pick up the obvious connection with the same story just told by different points of view.. But regardless of which you think is true.. It's only a facade.. There is NO GOD, BUT MAN.. Claims to the son of god are simply symbolic just as communion ritual.. Were all son of god. When dealing with reality, the gods are merely the solar system and the energy flow that is caused by each gravitational pull.. Now back to Satan aka (Jesus). It's says clearly and in plain English in King James (original bible) that Mary was visited by an angel. This angel as it is stated in this book written by men. That she would conceive the son of god.. It depicts his name. It's not JESUS IT'S IMMANUEL.. Now next point.. Christianity comes from Judism. Ok search and try to find origins of Islam. Try looking at the times of King Solomon.. Jews all of them are initially JEWS.. ok now the origins of Judism.. EGYPT!!!!! OPEN YOUR MINDS AND STOP BEING IGNORANY. PIECE IT TOGETHER DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION.. THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! IT'S YOUR OPINION AS ITS YOUR RIGHT TO HAVE ONE.. BUT NOBODY ASKED YOU FOR IT.. YOUR PUSHING YOUR WILL ONTO OTHERS. THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE SIN.. AS THE WORD MEANS RESTRICTION.. FIND YOUR PATH AND BECOME ENLIGHTENED NOT BLIND... Peace be with you all.. Live free... ( I didn't comment to argue, just to make a statement.. don't bother commenting try to argue. After this is posted I will have forgotten it and have moved on.. Behind me ..) I won't come back to check.. I don't thrive on attention, I trive on knowledge not power...

  • Dino

    The authors 1st assertion shows his ignorance... early Christians were Jews... the Jews were slaves of the Egyptians for centuries. They were teachers..they would have had access to all the Egyptian mythologies during their captivity.

  • Paul Bolton

    Myths are stories handed down from generation to generation, sometimes copied at later dates. This is also how the myth of the Christ was formed.

  • Charles Ayala

    This a well thought out criticism and has a lot of skeptical merit, BUT you have to take into consideration that it was written by an obviously biased author. Director of Marketing for Catholic Answers.

  • Jeffrey Nelson

    "Not only that, but we have in the Bible actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion."

    Um, no we don't. There are zero first-hand accounts of Jesus in the Bible. Credibility blown right there.

  • Rullbert Boll

    This argument should be final regarding the existence of Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAKfBt7_QI
    It should be devastating for the Jesus-myth theory. Only people don't understand statistics, and don't know that statistics was discovered in the 18th century.

  • Jason Adolphson

    It's like playing telephone - and elements change based on society, politics and interperetaintions.
    People should understand it's okay to attain new knowledge rather than wish it away.

  • Michael Sanches

    Excellent rebuttal. Not only do people who claim that the life of Jesus was copied from popular myths of the time have to show this is true, many of the facts of Jesus life were prophesied centuries earlier before any myths even appeared.

  • Anastasi

    I think there is a lot of comfimation bias on both sides here. As a cafeteria cathoilc, and a very picky eater, however, I must side with author Sorensen on this one. But not for the same reasons. Before Maher did his research for his movie, I doubt he ever heard of Hours or other like stories. Most educated people don't know of these stories, despite all the
    sources of mass communication we currently have. You think that the writers of the New Testment were that erudite? This does not make the Jesus story true. I just think it wasn't copied or just invented. Also a story that is original does mot make it ture or a copy story false.

  • mujwahuki

    If PhD is the credential to believe on any historical material, the the Bible story loses credibility, because originators of the stories didn't have any!! Btw, why was the library destroyed in Alexandria, what information were being hidden to future generations?! And the destroyers of such books are the one selling Biblical story!! Only The Father knows the Truth, and will be made available directly to us at appropriate time, not through translated and mistranslated stories!!

  • michael

    As an atheist who read MD Murdock's book as a catholic, and has re-read some of it again as an atheist, I can sure you the book is clearly bogus. There are so many obvious reasons why. It's almost hard to imagine she meant to be taken seriously.

  • DayOfTheCuttingEdge

    Of course satan attempted to kill jesus in the desert, falling for temptation is the mortal sin. If jesus falls to temptation all would be lost aka death. Further more Moses who led the isrealites out of egypt would of had extensive knowledge of the myths of Horus given his status in Egypt at the time. I'm not saying there is a connection just pointing a few things out.

  • Willdeal

    Don't believe everything you read this is what they want u to think to deceive you guys! If that's the case then Seth is God because The God never loses if u build a robot u know all it's weaknesses and can shut it down The God is all knowing he will never lose .

  • Smellyface

    To the claim that Jewish Christians wouldn’t have had access to the litany of Egyptian creation myths and legends, that’s likely false. The Library of Alexandria existed not only during the time period that Jesus would have lived, but for a few hundred years afterwards. The Bible is theorized to have been written during that period, and as such, Jewish Christians would have had access to the largest collection of historical knowledge in the ancient world.

  • Smellyface

    Not quite. The Egyptians were very well-known for record keeping, so their creation myths and legends would no doubt have been documented. Not to mention, the Library of Alexandria still stood during this time, and throughout Jesus’ lifetime. It wasn’t for a few hundred years that it was destroyed, so those in that region would have had access to the greatest collection of knowledge in the ancient world.
    Secondly, we have well-researched evidence to support the claim that other aspects of Christianity were influenced by other cultures. The concept of halo’s is never mentioned in the Bible, but it was an aspect of the dominant sun worship during the reign of Constantine. His desire to convert Rome’s official religion to Christianity was met with heavy resistance, so he tapped into aspects of the current spiritual following to make it more palatable to the masses. Halo’s, “Sun”day, etc.
    You are right, there is no conclusive piece of evidence that can be pointed at to claim that Jesus’ story was taken from the Egyptians; it’s based on circumstantial evidence, conjecture, and educated guesses given their strong similarities.

  • ManGod BlackGenesis

    Not much to see here, just throw the Bible right in with the rest of the stories. After the Catholic Church had one of there last conferences to and Mary into the divine biblical mix, slavery began, so I don't put too much effort trying to figure out how wonderful the book is

    • Not sure what you mean about Mary. Are you saying slavery dd not exist before some ecumenical council? I thought it existed since ancient times. Certainly it is mentioned in Exodus. Are you saying that book was not written until after Catholicism was legalized in the 4th century?

      The side question is. what do you think Catholics believe about Mary? I don't know what you mean by the divine biblical mix but we don't think she is divine.

    • Luis

      Could not agree more!

  • poo bear

    I'm late to this discussion, but it's obvious the author is a christian apologist.....you made "some" interesting counter points but you ENTIRELY missed the main point......this is NOT about the horus/jesus myths matching exactly. Why would or should they? When societies "borrowed" other belief systems, they made changes and adapted them over time to make them THEIR OWN. See the Greeks and the ones who stole their gods, the Romans.....get it?!! You were trying to discredit this by getting matchy matchy and you lost sight of the forest for the tree's. Clearly one can see that the judeo christian religions borrowed from the egyptians. There are to many MAIN similarities....yes, not all are true, but the main components are. When nations conquered other nations they built their cities on top of the vanquished ones....built their temples on top of the vanquished temples and absorbed THE CONQUERED peoples who then were forced to accept a new belief system, which, over time, became, a mish mash of the new belief system along with the old one....and as they progressed and became powers in their own right, they pushed their "story" on others.....you got caught in the weeds Mr. Sorensen by being a literalists ....but many religious people are literalists so it's no surprise you're religious view is this way.

    • Mark

      >There are to many MAIN similarities....yes, not all are true, but the main components are.

      Assertion without credible primary or scholarly secondary evidence is exactly what the author suggests you might be doing. How he suggests one counters the claims is to ask what primary or scholarly secondary scholarly evidence do you have to support this assertion? The main similarities would be any dogmatic Catholic teaching and any Egyptian similar "component".

      • Luis

        You do realize, that the author of this article, in the process of 'fact-checking' the connections between Horus and Jesus Christ, he admits throughout the article that there are actually multiple similarities? He is only able to truly fact-check 1 or 2, while the other ones he just sort of attempts to shade away with his opinionated point of views.

        Read through the article again bud. Looks like you're here debating without even holding any knowledge at all in the subject.

    • Luis

      You couldn't have said it any better.

  • calledit78

    This religious writer is so brainwashed it ain't funny. Okay wannbe smarty pants, out of all the Gods that were worshiped by many different civilizations, which ones have be proven true? exactly zero. Why did Greek Gods worshipped by Romans become no more? Christianity convinced the Roman emperor that Jesus story was real and then Greek Gods were killed off, literally by Christian warriors. Humans just want to believe in something to comfort themselves but it is all just BS. Humans created Superman and Batman and many other tall tales for entertainment and to help humanity with rules. But the Bible is just filled with one line conman slogans like: God works in mysterious ways or you just got to believe or have faith. But there is not one instance of the Bible telling a fact that was proven 100% later. Like why didn't anyone ask Jesus is the world round or flat? Because the conmen who wrote knew that if they get it wrong than the con is up.

  • Brien

    Who cares !!
    You have yet to prove your god --- so your jesus story is just that - a story!
    He remains a socialist hippy of his day...

  • Luis

    Before I even judge this very well written article, I have to give my respects to the author, Jon Sorensen, who regardless of his personal beliefs, did extensive research on a topic (Horus) which is not easily found, at least on the internet.

    While I respect Christianity, as well as the existence of Jesus Christ. I do not think that seeking the 'truth' automatically debunks all other theories or religions. If there is a correlation between Horus and Jesus Christ, we do not need to immediately think of one being 'inferior' or inauthentic, but rather ask, could they have been the same? Was Christianity perhaps influenced by Ancient Egyptian Mythology? These are two valid questions. The bible states that God was always present, from the beginning, which would give way to the possibility of Jesus Christ or a related being like Horus existing prior to Christ's birth. The second question is also very valid, regardless of religion, cultures have always adapted and taken from other cultures, specially the Romans. The Romans were known to adapt many of their cultural beliefs from the Greek world, so it would not be radical to believe that they could also have adapted some beliefs from the ancient Egyptians.

    Now, here are some points in which it is clear you have a bias, and could have been more professional in your breakdown:
    1. "However this story may be classified, it is not a virgin birth". This is not entirely true, as ambiguous spells in the coffin texts recovered indicate that Isis was impregnated by a flash of lighting. There are then other sources that claim Isis (in bird form) brings Osiris temporarily back to life and copulates with him utilizing a golden phallus. Which unless explained explicitly, does not entirely eliminate the possibility of Isis still being a virgin.

    2. "In stark contrast, there is never any reconciliation between Jesus and Satan in Scripture". This is only partly true, and would depend on your type of Christianity. Although there is no textual reconciliation between Jesus and Satan, the one and only God is the one that allows Satan to rule in hell, all for a greater purpose. That would be a direct correlation between Seth and Horus, (when they reconcile, Egypt was unified).

    3. "Horus did not travel the countryside laying his hands on sick people and restoring them to health". By far, your most biased argument. Just because Horus didn't physically travel to heal people, does not mean that he didn't have the power to do so. If the spirit of Horus (in a spell) is curing sick people, that is technically the same, and would be another strong relation to the story of Jesus Christ.

    4. "Doing battle with the “god of the desert” is not the same as being tempted while alone in the desert; and according to the Gospel accounts, Satan did not attempt to kill Jesus there". Although a factual statement, here, it is clear that you want to look for absolutely any reason to deny a reality, reality based on science and pure evidence. Whether Horus was tempted or not, it is still an extremely odd coincidence, and they keep adding up, no matter how much you want to deny them.

    5. "But Horus does not appear in the mural" SEE THE IMAGE ATTACHED. Horus is the hawk-headed figure sitting on the throne. Also notice him holding an Ankh on his hand, which is a commonly known Christian symbol nowadays.

    6. "which in no way resembles the sacrificial death of Jesus". More bias. Perhaps you do not agree/believe that Horus death was sacrificial, but the fact remains that the story tells he was brought back to life. Which again, regardless of your religious-bias, it is impossible to deny that that is by fact the strongest relation so far.

    Ladies and gentlemen, this is why it is imperative to FACT-CHECK, even the alleged 'fact-checkers'. There is always a bias, a motive, behind the writing and fact-checking. Me, on the other hand. I am not against Christianity, like I commented above, I do not think Horus story denies or completely affects Christianity, but the deny science and history, all for the sake of spreading your agenda, is not only ignorant but pretty evil. These are very strong correlations that are UNDENIABLE. However, does that solve all of our problems? Not even close. It only opens far more questions that we could wish of ever answering... But at least, it is one step closer to the TRUTH, remember... The TRUTH, not your truth.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b6775f857ac54060e0e7f7c328877f02889fcc6df76cbee28dc79d457906aea4.jpg

  • Luis

    I'm reposting the image here (proving Horus had 12 disciples) in case someone does not want to click the link in my other comment.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b6775f857ac54060e0e7f7c328877f02889fcc6df76cbee28dc79d457906aea4.jpg

    • Mark

      As can be seen in a non-cropped picture, not only are there twelve men, but also twelve women (facing the opposite direction). Your pic is taken from the tomb of Thutmose III from 1426 from the 7th hour of the Amduat. This is also known as the Gate of Osyris in the Mysterious Cavern. The 24 stars are reference to the hours of the day and night. The upper and lower register is representative of the left and right bank of the netherworldly Nile. The middle register depicts the bark (boat) and is the centerstage or main storyline if you will. Above you've posted a cropped picture (1/2 of 1/3 lower register) of the 7th hour (of 12 hours) of the Amduat and drawn asinine conclusions to put it mildly. This is the halfway point of Re's journey through Duat; likely referencing the halfway point to dawn. You can see the slaughtering of Apopis on the right/east opposite of Re in the west in this hour.

      If you want to actually learn from a historian that is not wearing a tinfoil posting garbage on the internet, read the book referenced and not an interpretation of a cropped picture:

      The Egyptian Amduat: The Book of the Hidden Chamber Erik Hornung

      http://www.sofiatopia.org/maat/7_Hour.jpg

      • Jim the Scott

        Me thinks staying at home all day is taking a toll on some......

        PS Well done bro!:D

        • Luis

          I think it might also be taking a toll on you, since you're also on the same forum that I am. ;)

          Feel free to read my response above, since time seems to be of your essence.

          • Jim the Scott

            You found the number 12 is used symbolically by other religions and by elaborate special pleading this proves what now?

            >That is, because if you actually read history, it would be impossible to deny the similarities between Horus and Jesus Christ

            Odin had twelve sons in Norse mythology. What does that prove? That you can find superficial similarities between religions?

            Also you just contradicted yerself. You originally claimed this proves Horus had twelve "disciples" (and this proved he was some forerunner to Jesus by implication).

            But the source Mark cites which you quoted says " Budge says Horus is accompanied by twelve gods who protect the tomb of Osiris.

            Baedeker: "Horus, before whom are the TWELVE star-gods who conduct the sun at night,"

            So are they subordinate "helper gods" or human disciples(like Jesus had)? Well? Move the goal posts much?

            That tin foil hat is clearly cooking yer brain. Pathetic. Correlation does not prove causation. You just proved a lot of religions use the number 12 symbolically. So what? How does that prove Horus caused the "myth" of Jesus or directly influenced Christianity?

          • Luis

            Imagine this person, and the 3 others, who upvoted Jim the Scott's answer. Claiming to be well-dedicated Christians, and 'defending' their Christian-based ideology, while also insulting a fellow-brother like myself: "that tin foil hat is clearly cooking yer brain, pathetic".

            Are these really the teachings you are trying to force on others? Perhaps the only reason why, (and many Americans) use the bible is to weaponize it against elements that they fear and do not agree with, such as: Transgenderism, homosexuality, pro-choice abortion, atheism, and perhaps, other religious ideologies.

            One book doesn't solve it all. No matter how much you adore it, and believe it word for word. God is the greatest no doubt, and as the greatest, he is above all human-made religions, above all evil thinking, and above all forms of intolerance and negligence.

            This is why it is very easy to win most debates and discussions against extremist Christians.

            The similarities are evident, undeniable, and in the context of history, correct. I am not claiming Horus and Jesus Christ are necessarily the same, and it is not rare to see these links.
            Whether you want to accept it or not, humanity has always adapted elements from other cultures, since the beginning of times.

            Godspeed my friends.

          • Dennis Bonnette

            I have explained elsewhere that an upvote need not mean approval of every last jot and tittle of a comment, but perhaps a sign only agreement with certain points made therein, which was the case in this instance.

            I really paid no attention to the remark which your hypersensitivity made you feel was invading your "safe space."
            And, certainly have no idea whether you own a hat made of tin or not. Still, the fact that you felt the need to upvote your own comment does come a bit close to sounding like something slightly "pathetic."

            All that aside, I fail utterly to see the logical connection of any alleged manner in which Christians may present Christianity to others with a reasonable defense for all the moral and philosophical stances you seem to want to justify in light of being offended. Truth is truth. How it is presented may not always be prudent or even fully charitable. But none of that changes the objective facts about all the highly controversial topics you attempt to justify by attacking the way others may present their views.

            If you really want to persuade others on this site of the coherence and validity of the issues you raise, you will have to do the the old fashioned hard way, that is, by presenting good arguments on their behalf.

          • Luis

            As I stated above: Well, since someone was apparently marking my replies as 'spam', I'd figure an up-vote would protect it. Just in case, I have saved my replies in word-document just in case I have to come back with the facts.

            Also, I'm guessing sarcasm isn't the strongest suit for you guys. If I was easily offended, I don't think I would be here looking for an open-debate with multiple individuals. Still, pretty ironic and amusing how the so-called "Christians", or what are supposed to be 'well-dedicated' Christians behave like when they are faced with a difference of opinion. I guess going to church on Sundays is not enough to make you a respectful and loving-individual, as the bible clearly notes "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

            I will also add, that I never failed to acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ, nor the good that the real Christian-based faith does for a significant percentage of followers. My defense, was simply to denote the clear correlation between Horus and Jesus Christ (which the original writer of this article failed to do without letting his bias get the best of him), in a healthy manner, without necessarily neglecting either of them. The fact that you, and so many other Christians take offense to factually-based representations of mythology and history, just represents why there are so many extremist Christians out there today, that play with the Bible, and weaponize it in vain.

            As far as 'persuading' others. I really could not care less. If you actually want the multiple references, images, texts (all cited), my replies are above to an individual named Mark. I more than proved my defense, and there is literally nothing you, or any Christian pastor can do to deny historical reality, even if it is mythological.

            I do not think Horus and Jesus Christ are necessarily the same. But they have many similar elements; like they both had the power to heal, they both had 12 disciples, and many more similar elements, that again, all can be found in multiple articles, books, videos, documentaries, and even YouTube videos.

          • Jim the Scott

            @dennisbonnette:disqus

            They don't both have twelves disciples. Jesus had twelve disciples and Horus in that carving has twelve star gods who guard his tomb. Other than the number 12 they are nothing alike.

            Thanks for playing. Come back when you have something serious to discuss.

          • Luis

            I think you replied to the wrong person.

            Anyhow, Horus did have 12 servants. Look up the cited articles I commented above, images, and much more evidence.

            You're welcome. ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            >Anyhow, Horus did have 12 servants...

            So it is servants now is it? What happened to "disciples"? Moving those goalposts must be tiresome. All ya did was show they have the number 12 in common. Nothing more.

          • Luis

            The number 12. And the same amount of servants/disciples/demi-gods, whatever you prefer to think they are.

            It is undeniable my friend,
            history is history. Even when it comes to mythology.

            Sore loser? ;)

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            The Bible is a dynamic integrated formal-system...

            1/ Jacob adopted Joseph's two son's.
            2/ Matthias and Paul became Apostles.

            The number 12 is a cryptograph within the formal-system of the Bible, depending on what symbol is being qualified, i.e. in reality there are more than 12 Tribes of Israel.

            This reveals the anomaly in the Horus model.

          • Jim the Scott

            You claimed Horus had 12 disciples like Jesus? All you found was an honor guard that watches over his tomb.

            Both of my brothers and myself and God the Father in Heaven all have this in common, we each have only one Son. So I guess that makes me divine by yer logic? K'ay.......

            >Sore loser? ;)

            Awe wee Lamb.

          • Luis

            Wrong, dummy.

            The 12 that guard the tomb are the female figures. The other 12 male figures are the Star-Gods, which face to Horus on the Amduat, Seventh Hour.

            I have already cited multiple sources on my earlier replies to Mark, that completely prove Horus had 12 followers, similarly to Jesus Christ.

            The example you're making is childish, to the point I will pay no attention to it.

            Your irony is laughable, and amateur.

            HA, HA, HA.
            Keep crying.

          • Jim the Scott

            12 star gods are "followers" or "Disciples" (because everybody know gods are followers not divine rulers in their own right) but they are not guarding tome (even thought they clearly are) and this proves "something"? This is somehow "similar" to Jesus Christ? Of course.........

            >HA, HA, HA.
            Keep crying.

            Lighten' up Francis.

          • Luis

            Nothing you stated makes sense, nor is it factual.
            You also cite no sources, or any evidence of the ignorant claims that you are making.

            The 12 female (goddesses of the hours) are the guardians of the Tomb of Osiris. Horus has 12, Osiris has 12.

            Just cry a little more.
            Did I hurt your Christian feelings? ...Lol

          • Jim the Scott

            You found the #12. How lucky you are as it is a number that is one full third bigger than Big Bird's favorite #8. You could audition for Sesame Street. You could have his job.

            >Just cry a little more.
            Did I hurt your Christian feelings? ...Lol

            So you need my sadness in order to be happy? K'ay........

          • Luis

            I found the number of disciples/followers, not just the digit 12.
            Thank God we have the images and actual photographs for themselves, otherwise, extremist Christians like yourself would have probably erased this a long time ago from the history books.

            A Sesame street joke? HA, HA, HA...

            Don't worry, you can always confess your smaller sins to your pastor ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Yer still here? Show some dignity laddie.

          • Luis

            You got owned bud ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            That took you a month to write? There goes the last bit of that dignity.

          • Luis

            HA, HA, HA.

            I find it amusing how easily offended you are.
            The best of luck to you pal. Sending my love to you.
            Not that difficult to actually practice what the bible teaches us, or is it to you? ;)
            I <3 YOU.

          • Jim the Scott

            I'm easily offended?......K'ay. You do you you my son. You might discover the #14 and link it to Jesus and Horus.

          • Luis

            Just tell me truthfully... Are you crying at night from my comments and fact-checking, or are you constantly walking around in circles thinking how can I get this guy to stop laughing at my pathetic attempts at sarcasm and comedy?

            HA, HA, HA...

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe. Wee lamb.

          • Luis

            You might have an obsession at this point Jim.
            Maybe time to tell ya' mommy?

            HAAAAAAA, HAAAA, HAAAAA

          • Jim the Scott

            "Don't be a wee clipe."

          • Luis

            Still using your son's laptop?
            Guess you watched too many inappropriate things and that is why your personal laptop died on you?

            HE, HE, HE.
            Good Catholic.

          • Jim the Scott

            Creepy.....

          • Luis

            You? ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Him. :D

          • Luis

            I think staying home alone too long may be doing you wrong, hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahah the irony

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Oh I'm such a 'killer', HAHAHAHAHAH

          • Jim the Scott

            A pritty face suits the dish-cloot.

          • Luis

            YEEEEHAAAAAAA

            HAHAHAHA

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            HA, HA, HA
            You got like the same 3 sarcastic comebacks in your dictionary, mate. Time to get some new definitions.
            Cloooooooown.
            And YEHAAAAAA cowboy! HA, HA, HA

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe, wee lamb.

          • Luis

            Easy killer
            HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Keep the Heid.

          • Luis

            YEEEEEHAAAAAA little cowboy!

            HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            How's your son, Jim?

            Aweeeee lamb.

          • Jim the Scott

            Creepy....

          • Luis

            Don't cry little sheep!

            HE, HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott
          • Luis

            Very creepy!

            I fixed your name btw: Jim the Clown*

          • Jim the Scott

            You do realize yer creepy activities (making personal comments about my son) are plausibly a banning offense and Brandon the guy who moderates the blog has just made an appearance?

            Just saying......

          • Luis

            Awwww, too late to play the victim now Jimmy.

            You've been just as hostile for over a month, consistently replying to my comments like an absolute loner, with nothing better to do.

            Not to mention it was you, and Mark, who originally replied to my comment which I made over 3 months ago.

            Don't cry little Jimmy!

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Very creepy!

          • Jim the Scott

            Yes UR.

          • Luis

            Creepy kid

          • Jim the Scott

            The creepy'ness.

          • Luis

            Don't cry Mr.Loner.

            It's never too late to find some friends and get a life!

            HA, HA, HA

            I'm kind of starting to feel a bit sorry for your son and wife.

          • Jim the Scott

            Bicycle.

          • Jim the Scott

            :D Nice move upvoting yerself there lad.

            >The similarities are evident, undeniable,

            You found other religions use the number 12. That is it. Other than that yer wee rant is "tediously brief" to quote the Bard & full of "tragic mirth". I would cite "sound and fury" but that is too cliche.

          • Luis

            Well, since someone was apparently marking my replies as 'spam', I'd figure an up-vote would protect it. Just in case, I have saved my replies in word-document just in case I have to come back with the facts ;)

            Read up my friend, you have missed the entire argument. I have more than proven the similarities between Horus and Jesus Christ. In fact, if you cared to even read (which clearly you do not) even the original author of this article accepted some of those similarities.

            Jokes on you.

          • Jim the Scott

            You showed they have the number 12 in common. That is it.

            We are not having a debate. You are just being rather odd. Four months then you show up out of the blue ranting about .....stuff. But I will still resist the temptation to use the "sound & fury" quote. Midsummer Night's Dream references is all you get laddie. Yer nor worthy of The Scottish Play. I have higher standards for the last of the great Gaelic Kings of my people(even if The Bard maligned him a wee bit).

          • Luis

            In case you aren't aware, once you sign-up (to be able to even comment on this forum) they ask for your email. Every single time there is a response that attaches a '@' to your name, it automatically sends an email notification to your inbox.

            Also, it really does not do you any good to try to 'talk me' into being home too much, or having too much time as you insinuate, since you are here, arguably "wasting" the same amount of time that I am.

            They do have the number 12 in common. I'm glad you can at least accept that. They both had the power of healing (this is far better documented of Horus, than the fact that he had 12 servants). They are both allegedly born of a virgin, although it is very easy to claim that Horus' mother was not technically a virgin, but she did not engage in the common sexual-intercourse either. You can find many other similarities (and differences) on the net.

          • Jim the Scott

            You have the number 12 and that is it. That and 100 cents will get ye a cup of coffee in my town.

            And another quote from the Bard. Why? Because I feel like it.
            "“Captain of our fairy band, Helena is here at hand, And the youth, mistook by me, Pleading for a lover's fee. Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!

      • Luis

        First, let's get this this important element out of the way:
        There is a reason why only 12 of the disciples are facing Horus, while the other 12 women face the tomb of Set.

        The next order of 12 helpers are female and represent the nocturnal hours facing away from Horus and towards Set.

        I am aware that the image is from the Amduat, Seventh Hour.
        "On the right of the Boat of AFU-RA and facing it, are HORUS, and the twelve Gods of the hours, who protect the tombs".

        In a tomb at Thebes, Budge says Horus is accompanied by twelve gods who protect the tomb of Osiris.

        Baedeker: "Horus, before whom are the TWELVE star-gods who conduct the sun at night..."

        Since you claim to be a historian, (although you sound a lot more like a Christian propagandist). You should also be aware, that this isn't the only example of 12 motif in biblical, pagan religion and mythology.

        Other examples:

        The 12 Gods of Egypt
        The 12 Olympian Gods
        The 12 Devas of India
        The 12 Moons of China
        The 12 Tasks of Hercules
        The 12 Divisions of the Tuat
        The 12 Shields of Mars
        The 12 Princes of Ishamel
        The 12 Prophets and Kings of Israel
        The 12 White Horses of the Polish Sun God

        There is no need for me to cite any of those 10 examples, as a simple google-search will pull them up. Otherwise you can find your local library.

        You did not reference a single thing from the book you claim on multiple occasions to have read. That is, because if you actually read history, it would be impossible to deny the similarities between Horus and Jesus Christ. It scares you, because you're more Christian than you are historian. You're biased, like everyone else.

        I'd suggest you do your research next time you try to 'fact-check', because I made clear differences between anecdotal approaches, and factual statements when I made my original reply.

        I end (and clearly win) this debate.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c56391a3eb726c310f4ffa6b44b519d6c1833714ed7791286443243dfe0a6823.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c779554d1e873fe7462c662f38cd1706207d4c8f1b3b1b3317c5d4cf78af50f9.jpg

        • Luis

          I will also add the following:

        • Philip Rand

          Luis

          Your list is very interesting... especially item 11 in your list...

          Item 11 in your list is: The 12 Sons of Jacob.

          Biblically, the number 11 represents "fulfillment"... weird that you unconsciously placed the 12 Sons of Jacob as item 11 in your list... it would appear that the external environment revealed the truth without you realising... very interesting...

          • Luis

            Interesting. Did not notice that at all.

            By the way. I'm not anti-Christian. My father is Christian (a little too extremist in my opinion) and so when I see people acting like him, it's very easy for me to stop their bias. I think religion does some good in the world, like fulfilling, uniting people, teaching good, etc. What I don't believe is good, is to manipulate, force, battle other religions, hate, etc.

            Also, throughout my search (first time I entered this topic was 3 months ago). I did realize Horus does have similarities, and not everything is as simple as a Google search (there's a lot of misinformation).

            But come on now, the similarities are crazy. Remember Christians, in the Bible it says: "I am the beginning at the end".
            Also, how else could we explain the many stories (that strongly connect to the Bible) of Jesus Christ visiting Britain and India. The Mormons believe he visited the Americas (although there is no ancient text ever claiming this).

          • Rob Abney

            >I believe religion does some good in the world, like fulfilling, uniting people, lifting others, teaching goodness, and of course giving us a path to understanding our past.<
            That’s all true but very limited. Do you believe that all men are born broken and that there is very little we can do to overcome that brokenness? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God and came to restore our brokenness by dying on a cross? Do you believe that He had 12 apostles so that He could institute a church that could allow all men to partake of His gifts of grace?
            He seems to have much more to offer mankind than Horus.

          • Luis

            I completely agree with your statements and opinions.
            Yes, of course Jesus Christ is far more important than the story of Horus, in many aspects. Horus is a mythological creature, and there are many aspects of his life that are (at least in human understanding) unrealistic and bizarre.

            I am not here to fight Jesus Christ, I am simply here to make it aware that we cannot neglect realities and potential alternatives just because we follow what we believe is the "only" path to salvation, and to God.

            Nothing I state here about Horus can contradict God's greatness. But in my personal opinion:
            1. God is first
            2. Human-written bible, human-text, human-philosophy comes third. Because after God, comes love. Everything after.

          • Rob Abney

            That’s a nice comment but I am led to believe that your main issue is that you don’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church as instituted by Jesus Christ?

          • Luis

            My problem is the bible and the way we interpret it.

          • Rob Abney

            Who do you trust to interpret it, yourself? Pope Luis? How about a continuous group of men with apostolic succession?

          • Luis

            It should be interpreted individually.

            Anyone heart-willing will know how to interpret it in a loving manner, and not misuse it for political/philosophical approaches; which only attempts to demonize individuals.

            Only God can judge.
            No pastor, no interpreter, no church, no follower has the final word.

          • Rob Abney

            Yes, that’s a nice thought, that no one else can judge you accept you. Of course you miss out on giving or receiving fraternal corrections that may save your soul or your friend’s.

        • Mark

          I'm not a historian, nor claimed to be. I do read a great deal of history as a hobby. I know how to research professional academic historians and who I should rely on their expertise. I also know how spot a tin foil hat. You're not really arguing against a Christian apologist or propagandist, you're arguing against nearly every published historian on the subject mater, either Egyptology or Christianity.

          It seems you have rely heavily on only Murdock (online pseudonym of Acharya S) who frequently referenced the discredited Egyptologists G Massey, K Graves, and S Sharpe and also the severely outdated work of Budge. She also suffered (as do you) from hyperparallelism. I'm not making the claim Jesus was a myth, you are. It's up to you to provide evidence of the conspiracy theory you believe. Nearly all secular historians agree Jesus of Nazareth was a real man. Every Egyptologist I've ever read have been critical of Murdock's Egyptology to the point it is viewed as fiction. Lastly her fame was made with her appeal to fringe group of conspiracy theorists, which I believe you belong squarely in. She was clearly a New Age crackpot. Among my favorite things which she has claimed:

          1/ HIV is a mind control (made-up) disease used to control the mases and quell the sexual revolution.

          2/ The pope is the grandmaster of all freemasons.

          3/ Augustine was a Manadean? that converted for power reason at Nicea. (Manchean, was not alive in the 4th century)

          4/ Ireneas was a Gnostic, we know because of the floors found in the church of Lyons. (Nope, he was anti-gnostic and no floors in Lyons exist.)

          5/ Erhman eviscerated her connecting the Apostle Peter to a Roman statue of a penis-nosed rooster-man.

          • Luis

            If you did not claim to be a historian, you clearly insinuated to be one. Now it is more understandable why you cannot correctly recall history without bashing it entirely with your Christian-based bias.

            I'm not arguing against well-read historians, because (unless they have a Christianity bias) most would be able to link 5-7 very strong and interesting correlations between Jesus Christ and Horus, when it comes to their ancient stories. Now, not only did you attempt to insinuate that you were a historian, now you are incorrectly and inappropriately attempting to diagnose me with 'hyperparellelism'. Again, now it is more apparent how much you, and the writer of this article are clearly biased, and at this point, extremist Christians.

            Also, I never insinuated nor claimed that Jesus Christ was a myth. I have never denied his existence. You're the brainwashed individual attempting to deny realities from Egypt, and their clear connections to not just Jesus Christ, but many other religions. You clearly live in your own world, in a world where only the Bible exists. Perhaps you haven't even bothered to learn and look at the many civilizations that existed prior to Jesus Christ.

            Also, the statements you quoted coming from Acharya S are completely irrelevant to the subject we are discussing.

            At this point you're just stating your opinion, and non-interesting topics that have nothing to do with the main point. Horus, as clearly depicted from images, multiple texts, and the ancient Egyptian mythology itself had 12 servants/disciples/demi-gods, or whatever suits your narrative.

            There is nothing factual you have said that denies the reality of Horus having 12 disciples, you claim to have read multiple books, yet you cite nothing regarding Horus, nor his 12 servants. You had to rely on quotes that have nothing to do with the subject. It is clear you are attempting to change and shy-away from the subject.

            You claim to read a lot my friend, but it looks like the only thing you have read in your lifetime is the bible and a couple of internet articles.

            Godspeed.

          • Luis

            I'll add some additional reference points, which again, continue to evidently showcase that Horus had 12 disciples/servants:

            Gerald Massey, from Ancient Egypt (1907): Light of the World, claims that Horus similarly had twelve followers.

            From the Book of the Amduat, which dates to the New Kingdom (16th-11th centuries. BCE), comes the following image: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2c22f52b66b247edaad7a2e29b8095a6793b16335c66e289586cca277bcc2ba0.jpg

            Notice how 12 are facing Horus.

            "Even today, when the Sun comes up, we see it on the Horus-Risen, or Horizon. His life was also divided into 12 parts or steps across Heaven each day: 12 HORUS = 12 HOURS. This is the origin of the modern "12 Step Program". Horus is the (new-born) Sun, or the Bringer of the Light". chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/hours-and-horus

            Fini.

          • Luis

            Someone marked my additional reply as 'spam', which clearly proves that they're losing out of arguments to try to deny reality.

            Here are some articles with references, clearly denoting the fact that Horus had 12 disciples/servants:

            "Like so many other Godmen, Horus too had twelve disciples, followers, accomplices or helpers. In the Pyramid and Coffin texts we find frequent references to Horus and his Ennead or Enneads, which isn't always a connotative of nine Gods, on the contrary, such a term can be representative of twelve, as Horsley remarks: The Ennead does not necessarily include nine Gods, as strange as that may seem. We have lists of the Gods that include up to twelve". (6).
            Source: Dudekin's transcripts. (June 17, 2009).

            Gerald Massey, from Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, stated that "Horus similarly had twelve followers".
            Retracted from: booktalk.org

            From the Book of the Amduat, which dates to the New Kingdom (16th-11th centuries. BCE), comes the following image: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c779554d1e873fe7462c662f38cd1706207d4c8f1b3b1b3317c5d4cf78af50f9.jpg

            Notice how the 12 disciples/servants are facing Horus.

          • Mark

            Who is Dudekin?

            Your appeals to Gerald Massey and his understanding of Egyptology would be the same as a modern Evolutionary scientist appealing to Charles Darwin's expertise on natural selection. It's unfathomable how much Egyptology has advanced in 120 years.

            Sometimes when you include links it gets spammed. I checked the link, it was to a blog promoting ex-christian . net For which it very well may have been spammed. You don't win anything for poor references that get spammed.

          • Luis

            Keep dancing around the subject all you wish. It does not change historical-mythological reality. To simply discredit all the sources that contradict your opinion (and inexpert opinion, at that) does not mean the articles are wrong.

            These are direct citations, it has nothing to do with the promoted 'ex-christian' website, which is simply a link on the blog, and not necessarily part of the blog that I cited. Also, even if it was from an ex-christian source, it does not discredit the explanation or relevance, simply because you are biased yourself.

            You have not cited any credible source contradicting to the idea that Horus had 12 disciples. You have replied to me multiple times already, with 0 credible sources, and not one valid contradiction that isn't other than your opinion.

            I have cited MULTIPLE sources, from books, well-written online articles, ORIGINAL images taken from the tombs themselves, and ORIGINAL verses from the ancient Egyptian mythology itself.

            I'm guessing you're also one of those "I don't believe climate-change is real" type of Christians. Amusing.

          • Mark

            I have cited sources; specifically the Egyptologist you took the original image from. What does climate change have to do with your dillusions on Jesus Mythicism?

          • Luis

            Hilarious that you keep claiming me as a mythic. I for once, never neglected Jesus Christ's existence (I repeated this countless of times).

            I fact-checked this article, which was well-written, and BY THE WAY; in case you forgot to re-read this article, Jon Sorensen (who wrote this article) actually admits to multiple similarities. Some with sarcasm, and some where he tries to use whataboutism and humor to try to minimize their importance, or emphasize unimportant points to try to make the similarities seem less important, or less alike.

            Read through his article again.

          • Luis

            I also cited Baedeker (Founded July 1, 1827):
            Egypte et Soudan. Manuel du voyageur (Published 1914):
            "Horus, before whom are the TWELVE star-gods who conduct the sun at night..."

            If you're opinionated contradiction was factual, why would Baedeker cite Horus and twelve star-gods, and not 24 (including the female figures) as you originally claimed?

            Even the image speaks for itself.
            Only 12 face Horus.

          • Mark

            So I'm repeating myself here. Do you have a modern historian in Egyptology that would cooberate your opinion on that image that "speaks for itself"? In 1900 King Tuts tomb had yet to be discovered which was a key turning point in the advancement of Egyptology. You're quoting amateur explorers like a wacky fundamentalist. I gave you the modern Egyptologist you copied the image from (his book).

          • Luis

            You're repeating yourself because you're not stating anything in particular, nor anything of importance.

            You keep repeating that you "gave me" the Egyptologist that I 'copied' the image from. I think you fail to remember, that he did not create the image, he only replicated the funerary text that was on the pharaoh's tomb. How does that add in anything to your point? Sure, the image might be cropped-out, that does not conclude anything.

            The 12-star gods face Horus.

            Nothing you have stated contradicts the idea that Horus had 12 servants, nor the fact that the number '12' was already an important denotation before Jesus Christ and his 12 disciples came into existence.

          • Mark

            The point is that modern Egyptologist that have studied the image of the Amduat don't have any version of your nonsense.

            "Nothing you have stated contradicts the idea that Horas had 12 servants, nor the fact that 12 people have walked on the moon." It is nonsensical, silly, asinine. You are a disciple of Murdock, I'm quite convinced.

          • Luis

            I really feel sad for extremist Christians like yourself. Wasting your entire lives attempting to deny the undeniable, trying to find explanations that not even your pastors can explain.

            You have given zero affirmations. Zero citations, no evidence that would suggest that Horus did not have 12 servants/disciples/demi-gods serving him. You have lost this debate a long time ago.

            As far as my personal ideologies, I'm definitely a believer in God, and I grew up as a Roman Catholic myself.

          • David Nickol

            Why is it at all important to connect the number 12 with Horus? The 12 apostles represent the 12 tribes of Israel in Genesis. The numbers 3, 12, and 40 keep recurring in Jewish and Christian scripture.

          • Mark

            I'm not arguing against well-read historians, because (unless they have a Christianity bias) most would be able to link 5-7 very strong and interesting correlations between Jesus Christ and Horus, when it comes to their ancient stories.

            Hand waving without evidence. List the historians and cite their work.

          • Luis

            I already cited, demonstrated, shared imagery and photographic evidence of the 12 disciples/servants of Horus, which was the main topic of discussion. You just keep neglecting facts.

            With a simple search on the net, as well as on YouTube, you can find many other accredited sources (sometimes institutions) telling the story of Horus, and yes it has some similarities to Jesus Christ. Like I stated above for example, 12 followers, power-healing attributes, both somewhat technically born of a virgin - although this is somewhat debatable on what you would consider virgin. None however, had to engage in sexual intercourse with another partner.

            You have listed 0 credible sources, 0 credible contradictions, 0 credible citations. Nada.

          • Mark

            Not true:

            The Egyptian Amduat: The Book of the Hidden Chamber Erik Hornung2007

            This Is the Sun?: Zeitgeist and Religion (Volume I: Comparative Religion) Albert McIlhenny 2012

            Did Jesus Exist? B Ehrman 2012

            Where do you find an Egyptologist saying Horas had 12 followers? What crack-pot parallel do you have that Horas was born of a virgin? Isis was impregnated by Osiris' penis. If you don't what constitutes a virgin you can sit in on a 5th grade sex-ed class.

          • Luis

            None of those sources contradict any of the findings I cited and concluded. You have given only two valid sources, with no citation whatsoever regarding Horus and his 12 disciples.

            Also, "One ambiguous spell in the Coffin Texts may indicate that Isis is impregnated by a flash of lightning, while in other sources, Isis, still in bird form, fans breath and life into Osiris's body with her wings and copulates with him" This is directly from Wikipedia (that would be about my 6th or 7th source so far since this discussion started). All different sources, which adds significantly to my thesis.

            The Pregnancy of Isis by R.O Faulkner (40)
            (Aug, 1968) Vol.54 :

            "Isis is impregnated not by the crude physical process described Pyr. 632, 1636, and illustrated on the walls of the temples, notably at Abydos, but by a flash of lighting that terrifies the Gods"

            Clearly you are not as well-read as you claimed to be. I've done a lot more extensive reading when it comes to this topic. I'll also add, that the other 'alternative' impregnation of Isis, is not with Osiris' part, but with a device that she makes, once Osiris has died.

          • Mark

            Wikipedia can be edited by any crack-pot and is not a scholarly source. Google scholar search astrotheology and you'll soon realize Murdock is the only crackpot that thought it was a real scholarly discipline.

            Isis was not a virgin. Mary never transformed to a bird/kite to hover over her dead brother/husband's coffin to conceive Jesus. Or alternatively, Mary never used her thumb to recreate the lost penis of Joseph to resurrect him. This is really tin foil hat stuff.

          • Luis

            In order to edit Wikipedia, you have to cite accredited sources, including scholarly sources. They also fact-check and immediately edit information which they believe to be inaccurate. Looks like someone hasn't been on the Internet for the last 7 years.

            Around that time was when almost anybody could edit Wikipedia. Which many users often did for humorous purposes.

            Isis was a virgin according to one of the alternatives of pregnancy. I guess you did not see I cited another source besides Wikipedia? I am prepared, unlike you. And I cite multiple sources, unlike you.

            A bird copulating with a Phallot device is not the same as a woman losing her virginity to a man.

            I'll copy and paste the article and reference which you clearly did not want to acknowledge, as it completely corroborates your take:

            The Pregnancy of Isis by R.O Faulkner (40)
            (Aug, 1968) Vol.54 :
            "Isis is impregnated not by the crude physical process described Pyr. 632, 1636, and illustrated on the walls of the temples, notably at Abydos, but by a flash of lighting that terrifies the Gods"

            Also, this is much better documented than Horus' 12 disciples. There are multiple other sources you can find other than the ones I stated explaining Isis virgin-pregnancy.

            You're really incoherent.

          • Mark

            From Wikipedia:AccademicUse

            "Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic writing or research. Wikipedia is increasingly used by people in the academic community, from freshman students to distinguished professorship, as an easily accessible tertiary source for information about anything and everything, and as a quick "ready reference", to get a sense of a concept or idea. However, citation of Wikipedia in research papers may be considered unacceptable, because Wikipedia is not a reliable source.[1][2][3]" You claim a source is reliable that itself denies it's reliability which explains a lot about this whole dialogue and your ability find credible source work. If, however, you refuse to elevate your level of scholarship credibility I can meet you where you at.

            You've claimed Isis was a virgin.

            From Wikipedia's Isis webpage (and the real source in parenthesis):

            "Finally, Isis restores breath and life to Osiris's body and copulates with him, conceiving their son, Horus." (Egyptian Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Goddesses, and Traditions of Ancient Egypt. Pinch 2004)

            Of course there are multiple stories of Isis and her becoming the mother of Horus. This is the oldest and most common. The one you've listed is from Spell 148 of the Coffin Text and referenced by Faulkner of course is his own interpretation of this text. I've only seen him use the term lightning. There is also the tradition of Horus being mothered by Halthor. Generally, modern Egyptologist separate the Horus as separate deities based upon the context that Horus is presented and the times of Egypt writings which is far beyond Murdock level scholarship.

            Back to the picture...

            You've claimed that the picture you put forth from Hornung's book from Thutmose III's tomb shows 12 disciples, 12 servants, and 12 demigods. I'm not sure which one you want to stick with. Hornung doesn't agree with this interpretation. You've cited Budge and Massey as a resource. Frazier is also a common source of Budge and Murdock. The problem I have with that is the picture you put on this page from Thutmose III was not a part of Egyptian artifacts during the writings Massey or Frazier. Massey's work The Natural Genesis that Murdock relies on was published in 1883. The Golden Bough Frazier was published in 1890. Thutmose III's tomb wasn't discovered until 1898. So that leaves you with Budge and Murdock. About half of Budge's work is published after 1900, so it is conceivable he had access to this picture/information of the 7th hour.

            So from Budge's wikipedia page: Though Budge's books remain widely available, since his day both translation and dating accuracy have improved, leading to significant revisions. The common writing style of his era—a lack of clear distinction between opinion and incontrovertible fact—is no longer acceptable in scholarly works. According to Egyptologist James Peter Allen, Budge's books "were not too reliable when they first appeared and are now woefully outdated." ( Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs. J Peter 2014 p. 464.)

            Erik Hornung, who wrote the book you took the 7th hour picture from doesn't describe this lower register as anything like 12 disciples. There are other archeological Egyptian sources of the Amduat, I'd be open whichever you think your sources had access to for their publications to see why you continue to draw the conclusions you do. The other Books of the Gates I've researched do not have anything like the picture you (Murdock) keeps referencing. This whole 12 disciples thing would be more convincing if something similar was found in the 7th hour of any other source.

            As for your other references. Still don't know about the reference "Dudekin"... guessing it is a copy and paste from a blog. Lastly Karl Baedecker wrote travel guidebooks, from which you referenced. I've used Rick Steves guidebook when I was in Ireland, but I wouldn't reference his guidebook if someone asked for scholarly Irish work.

            Most of your information you continue to regurgitate is from Murdock's work or the internet disciples of Murdock and ex-Christians. Murdock was not an Egyptologist. So I still have yet to see a credible source that portrays this picture as Horus' 12 disciples, 12 demigods, or 12 servants. If you have previously posted it, please kindly repost it here for my clarification.

            Thanks for your concern for the coherence of my posts. I can draw pictures with a crayons if you need me to.

          • David Nickol

            If Wikipedia is an unreliable source, their claim of unreliability must be looked upon with skepticism.

          • Luis

            Agreed with your last claim. It is nowhere near as unreliable as Mark wishes it to be, just so he can simply have some more ground to debate.

            There are multiple studies that show Wikipedia with an over 80% validity-rate in multiple areas; science, history, theology, and more.

            It should also be noted that Wikipedia more-than-often extracts from many other original (including scholar) sources.

          • Luis

            2008 paper in Reference Services Review compared nine Wikipedia entries on historical topics to their counterparts in Encyclopædia Britannica, The Dictionary of American History and American National Biography Online. The paper found that Wikipedia's entries had an overall accuracy rate of 80 percent.

            "A 2005 study in the journal Nature found that the information provided on Wikipedia is almost as reliable as that of the benchmark, Encyclopedia Britannica".
            By Tia Ghose, (Aug 24, 2015) Washington Post.

            "Numerous studies have rated Wikipedia's accuracy. On the whole, the web encyclopedia is fairly reliable".
            By Natalie Wolchover (Jan 24, 2011). Livescience.com

            Proving these multiple points, with multiple sources. We can now go back to my original claim, (which I cited three different sources for), that Isis was a virgin. My sources, even if you question them, would have around an 80-90% validity, while you have zero actual sources or citations to refute my claims.

            Here is an interesting and somehow related find from Encyclopedia Britannica, regarding Isis: "Images of Isis nursing the baby Horus may have influenced the early Christian artists who depicted the Virgin Mary with the baby Jesus".

            I bring this up, because again, not only has this entire debate been based on the connections between Horus' mythological story to Jesus Christ, but also, on the potential influences that it may have had in Christianity.

            As stated by professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck, in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament:
            "The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”

            Finalizing my thesis, I think at this point, regardless of your willingness (although inept) to continue to engage, I have more than proven my points, with multiple valid sources, both scholar sources, internet articles, original images and copies with explanations, direct statements from original books dating all the way to the 1800s, and much more evidence than anything you have provided.

            With the last piece of information, I more than proved Isis virginity, which is another connection.

            Total valid connections so far:
            Jesus - Horus (virgin mothers)
            Jesus - Horus (12 disciples/followers)
            Jesus - Horus (Both healed people)

            Perhaps you'll need to draw this for yourself with crayons, so you can understand just by how much you're losing this debate.

          • Mark

            I'm fine if you want to reference wikipedia. It's not considered scholarly work, however, I said I'd meet you where you are. According to wikipedia Isis was not a virgin. So I'm not sure why you want to make sure I understand how 80% accuracy helps you. Interestingly, I admit some stories of her have her as conceiving as a bird/kite from the dead corpse of her brother/husband. Of course it is up to you to connect the stories of her conceiving a child as a bird to the immaculate conception of Jesus.

            "My sources, even if you question them, would have around an 80-90% validity, while you have zero actual sources or citations to refute my claims." Didn't I just use your source to refute your claim Isis was a virgin?

            Going back to any source, where is Egyptian scholar that claims the picture of the 7th hour of the amduat from Thutmose III's tomb is his 12 desciples/servant?

          • Luis

            As stated by professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck, in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament:
            "The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”

            In addition, in the temple of Neith and Isis at Sais was an ancient inscription that depicted the virgin birth of the sun: "The present and the future and the past, I am. My undergarment no one has uncovered. The fruit I brought forth, the sun came into being".

            You lost this debate a long time ago.

          • Mark

            I see you're still cutting and pasting garbage from the internet and running victory laps in your tin foil hat. I suspect I'm dialoguing with a child. I have three teenagers so I'm well versed in such tactics.

            The Temple of Neith at Sais is Neith's temple and it isn't Isis'. Neith is a different goddess which I already explained to you. Neith is a goddess in which virginity would be referenced. She had no offspring nor copulates with any other Gods. It seems you have an inability to acknowledge this criticism. But you can cut and re-paste the same misinformation from the same garbage internet site if you want to.

            Dr. Botterweck wrote a theological Dictionary: It's a dictionary, and he's not an Egyptologist. Hwnt wrt has several meanings. Most commonly it means "great young girl" or "great maiden". Hwnt isn't used to specify virginity, but could be construed to be so. There is hieroglyphic representation of virgo intacta, so I guess the question would be, Why not use that? So I'd need an actual Egyptologist that would read that to interpret the intention rather than rely on a dictionary meaning from the TDOT. The TDOT clearly isn't written to put contextual meaning to the hieroglyphs you're referencing which is why he prefaces it with "it is interesting". But if hwn.t means simply great young maiden this reference is unremarkable with respect to the cult of Mary having some historical tie to the cult of Isis.

          • Luis

            I won't ever bother reading through your long, incoherent and fact-less paragraphs.

            I have already provided more than enough evidence for my take, multiple sources, scholar, web-sources, Wikipedia, blogs, book citations, and much more.

            All you have done is ramble, with anger around the subjects. You cannot deny reality. You cannot deny history.

            The connections are plain and clear. Most historians would recognize them.

            This does not in any manner neglect or deny Jesus Christ's existence. You can make your own conclusions.

            The reason I keep repeating you lost this debate is not necessarily for me to take a 'victory lap', but to make it perfectly clear that you provided nothing that contradicts my thesis, nothing factual other than your own personal (and bias) opinion.

            Good luck in your future debates, my friend. Make sure do truly do your research before entering into a topic you have no idea about. You tried to fact-check me, and on the process you got demolished with facts.

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe! Wee Lamb!

          • Mark

            I won't ever bother reading through your long, incoherent and fact-less paragraphs.

            Referencing peer reviewed scholarly work from an Egyptologist has that effect on some people.

          • Luis

            I referenced multiple other scholarly sources. I cited various confirmed tales regarding Horus, if not confirmed, at least the most recognized historically. I think you fail to comprehend that mythology is more complex than you might think. Especially when we are referring to Ancient Egypt, which dates to around 3150–2686 BC. Considering that, it is logical to assume that not only could there be misinformation (as you and the author argue), but also a lack of evidence and understanding behind these mythological chronicles.

            The reason why I did not read through your other response has nothing to do with the Egyptologist work you claim to have referenced, it is because I no longer feel the need to convince you of these elements. You are simply stuck on your informative-bias. I honestly could not care less whether you continue to believe in your own personal assessments and religiously twisted comprehensions of history.

            What I find both amusing and ironic, is to see how many 'Christians' in this comment-section, not only find offense with ease to these correlations, but also are so willingly to argue and insult others over religious and ideological narratives. I thought that the most important element of Christianity, or any good-faith based religion was to create respectful and loving individuals. To "love thy neighbor as thyself". A respectful dialogue can reach the same conclusions. This just proves that religion (and not just Christianity) often fail to captivate the most important teaching of the bible, which are love, forgiveness, and humility. That is where religion fails, it is based more on an agenda than anything else.

            Going back to the original point, I proved (not just with Murdock references, but multiple scholar references, images, direct transcripts and more) that Horus had 12 followers, and that his mother was a virgin. His mother, (as referenced in any Egyptology book of mythology) did not physically engage in sexual relationships with Horus' father, as she was still in bird form (this is depicted in images from the tombs).
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5b3f0af3dc5257d76828d56ac5b7c62f4f897bdfe57ab23a559a9889eb1c03c2.jpg

            For you to claim or to consider that Isis loses her virginity or divinity by keeping her body safe from the sexual experience, is quite absurd and extremist. Why does the image depict her as bird (in full) and not half bird, half human? Then your theory of Isis not being an actual virgin, would make a lot more sense.

            Multiple cited texts (from the tombs) also reveal how Isis herself claims to be a virgin. That, along with the second theory of how she actually became impregnated by a flash of lighting (which I also referenced). You seem to be in complete denial of historical data. I have advised you this on two other occasions, re-read through this article which we are debating on, even the author admits that there are multiple similarities between Horus and Jesus Christ, but of course, as a 'Director of Marketing for Catholic Answers' he tries his best to minimize the connections and insinuate that some are not true. I personally do not disagree with the fact that some have been taken out of context, but the ones that I provided are completely undeniable in the mythology itself.

          • Mark

            I proved (not just with Murdock references, but multiple scholar references, images, direct transcripts and more) that Horus had 12 followers,

            You proved nothing of the sort. You showed a cropped picture that Murdock used improperly. I had to figure out where it came from and then I had to tell you what Hornung interpreted it as and it wasn't 12 followers. Then you showed another picture you didn't reference where 12 people are pulling Re and you jumped to some fantastical conclusion. I'm not bothering chasing down additional pictures you don't reference because it is intellectually impoverished flib flab and I only did other people's homework when I get paid to.

            Multiple cited texts (from the tombs) also reveal how Isis herself claims to be a virgin.

            multiple citations referencing the same primary source is one source. Unfortunately which you take somewhat out of context for editorial purposes:

            https://www.jstor.org/stable/3855901

            Also it wasn't a tomb, it was a funerary text. Specifically Spell 148 of the Coffin Text. Also a guidebook to Egypt isn't scholarly work. Also OT theological dictionary isn't a proper reference for type of scholarly conclusions you're claiming. Lastly birds can copulate and when they do they are not virgo intacta.

          • Luis

            A "cropped image" is not a strong argument. I then provided the non-cropped versions, which clearly showcase how 12 followers/guardians are facing Horus, while the other 12 female-figures face in the opposite direction. If they were all Horus' disciples/followers (which would be your only strong point), why would 12 be facing away from Horus and towards the Tomb of Set.

            Perhaps would you even consider that that alone is somewhat of a clear depiction of each 12 groups (male/female) of followers having different functions? Because even if we were to group them all, as 24 followers/friends/guards of Horus, we would undeniably have to divide them for obvious reasons:
            1. Their gender.
            2. Their responsibilities as followers.
            This would again leave us to the number 12.

            And again, I will copy-paste this one source which you continuously and conveniently leave out of the equation, regarding Isis virginity: (Yes, this is completely relevant and important regarding the subject we are discussing, it is an accredited source):

            "The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”

            Source:
            Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Volume II):
            Author: Professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck
            Edited by: G. Johannes Botterwek and Helmer Ringgren
            Published: 1972

            Lastly, completely agree a bird that has copulated is no longer a virgin. If I magically turned myself into a horse tomorrow (assuming I was still a virgin) and copulated with a female horse, chicken, dog, or even human, once I come back to my natural body, I would not have lost my virginity in my physical and natural body. Perhaps you're referring to a mental or metaphysical type of virginity.

          • Mark

            "you continuously and conveniently leave out of the equation," I have done no such thing. I said it (TDOT) is an OT dictionary written by someone who is not an egyptologist. I also linked the hieroglyphic diction that translates hwn.t is normally tranlated as "young maiden" - not virgin or virgo intacta. This is again, just like fiery semen, one persons translation. My point again, it is a translation by someone who is not an Egyptologist.

            You completely miss the purpose of Isis transforming to a bird which is quite telling. There are many cult of Isis myths, the one you continuously referenced in particular had a purpose in making Isis a bird. Maybe you didn't know that or maybe you didn't read the journal entry I gave you. There was a reason given why this particular cult used the bird image and drastically changed the conception story of Horus. If you want to play mental gymnastics to make Isis a virgin this way, fine. Unfortunately, it only serves to grossly undermines any sort of parallel you are making to Matthew and Luke's gospels.

          • Luis

            Not all historians have to be Egyptologist in order to have extensive knowledge regarding historical data, philosophies, mythology, culture, and more. The fact that there even is a connection is already strong enough to insinuate the possibility behind Isis physical virginity.

            I'm also unsure of which 'link' you are referring to, as the only valuable source you have provided so far has been a thesis by an amateur writer, although he is certainly a qualified Egyptologist and professor, he is nowhere near the caliber of sources that I provided. Which is pretty ironic considering the fact that you kept complaining about me not providing scholar and legitimate sources, and again, I have provided far more sources, from different online libraries, journals, blogs, books, images, and more. Your sources have been vague, with very few of them actually neglecting anything that I sourced.

            As far as Isis transforming herself to a bird, I'm not sure what you are trying to insinuate. The spell regarding how Isis becomes pregnant with Horus is by Isis converting herself into a bird. Which again, if that is the case, I just find it extremely difficult to comprehend how you could make an argument about Isis losing her virginity. I have made multiple attempts at providing you with examples, and you seem very quiet about them. It's not an extensive or extremist take. If tomorrow I had the magical power to turn myself into a dog, and I copulated with a female dog, then turned myself back into my natural body, I'm really unsure of how that would somehow destroy my physical virginity. If your argument is for metaphysical or mental type of virginity, then sure, I'd give you that point.

            You have still also failed to comment on the many other connections between Horus and Jesus, which I provided on another comment below. There are multiple connections, not just the 12 disciples, Isis potential virginity, but also the being tempted/challenged in the desert, both Jesus and Horus healed people, both resurrected, and more.

          • Luis

            Having already replied to your inconsistent claims (most of them without any reference in favor of your point, or that disproves my original claims), I will now try this one last time.

            Regarding Isis' virginity and impregnation:
            Source: The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology (1914-2006)
            Published by: Sage Publications, Ltd.
            Volume: 54
            Author: R.O. Faulkner (English Egyptologist and philologist of the ancient Egyptian language).

            "For instance, if my interpretation of the first sentence is correct, Isis is impregnated not by the crude physical process described in Pyr. 632, 1636 and illustrated on the walls of temples, notably at Abydos, but by a flash of lighting which terrifies the Gods".

            Here are his direct translations:
            Taking shape as a Falcon: "The lighting-flash strikes(?), the Gods are afraid, Isis wakes pregnant with the seed of her brother Osiris".
            Isis: "I have moulded the shape of the god within the egg as my son who is the head of the Ennead".

            Wikipedia cites Faulkner's theory
            in the Osiris myth:

            "One ambiguous spell in the Coffin Texts may indicate that Isis is impregnated by a flash of lightning, while in other sources, Isis, still in bird form, fans breath and life into Osiris's body with her wings and copulates with him (Geraldine, 2004)."

            Source: Pinch, Geraldine (2004) Egyptian Mythology, A Guide to the Gods, Goddesses, and Traditions of Ancient Egypt.

            One of the inscriptions that calls Isis the “Great Virgin” appears in the temple of Seti I at Abydos dating to the 13th century BCE.

            Source:
            Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Volume II):
            Author: Professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck
            Edited by: G. Johannes Botterwek and Helmer Ringgren
            Published: 1972

            "The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”

            Although this text is also utilized in Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection by Acharya S, that is not where the text first originally appeared. Archarya's book was published in 2008, while the original text was first translated and published in 1972 by the respective authors above.

            Now the question is, will you continue to discredit these scholar and legitimate references, due to your strong religious bias? If so, I have nothing left to prove to you. These are realities, historical representations that will not be erased simply because you believe that life began in Ancient Rome.

            Even if you want to continue to discredit the possibilities, and alternative theories of how Isis became impregnated, her most recognized theory does not depict her in human-form losing her virginity. You can certainly make your own conclusions, but in order to lose your virginity, even by the most logical definition, you need to actually engage in intercourse with your own body, not in a bird's body, not in a dream, not by a magical method, or anything else. More specifically, a female loses her virginity only once her private area is popped. And again, as proven by the depictions in the tombs themselves, that is not what happened to Isis:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5b3f0af3dc5257d76828d56ac5b7c62f4f897bdfe57ab23a559a9889eb1c03c2.jpg

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cedd9980f326b45037192e11157cbb71c40216e1d4d62325cce3e34e1f01219c.jpg

          • Mark

            Now the question is, will you continue to discredit these scholar and legitimate references, due to your strong religious bias?

            Not at all. Faulkner is mostly alone in his interpretation of this event and he admits as much in the reference you made. In fact he makes it abundantly clear his translation is at odds with what was already translated by J Griffiths in The Conflict of Horus and Seth Later you can see Hornung disagrees with the interpretation:

            http://www.jacobusvandijk.nl/docs/JEOL_26.pdf

            He agrees with Blackman and Fairman. This is, to remind you, an ambiguous Coffin spell from one funerary that is at odds with all other accounts of Horus' conception. So at the end of the day I guess if you want conception to occur from a flash rather than fiery semen. That's the crux of your argument from one spell translation from one Egyptologist. You're going to great lengths to make this the virgin birth that the Gospel writers adapted. You're going to even further lengths to make the common story of Isis' conception virgo intacta.

          • Luis

            Your argumentation during the entirety of this debate, was based solely on the fact that you claimed I did not provide scholar and legitimate references, which I did on multiple occasions, and I provided them to you one last time.

            Faulkner may be alone in his interpretation, but unlike you, he is an actual Egyptologist and an expert in history. I would take his educated interpretation much more seriously than I would take yours, the author of the article on this page, or any other Christian skeptic who considers himself a history major.

            Now, to add on to this very interesting theory. Did you even take some time to actually study the mythology behind Isis? If you did, you would also know that Isis was the goddess of motherhood, fertility, magic, healing and rebirth. It would not be irrational for Faulkner or any other Egyptologist to assume that Isis indeed had the capabilities (within the mythology) to conceive a virgin pregnancy.

            Another important note: You attempt to discredit Raymond O. Faulkner's educated interpretation, which comes from a well-published source The Journal of Egyptian Archeology, and it is a peer-reviewed print from Sage Publications, a very well known journal.

            Your link on the other hand, is a thesis, it does not seem to be from a published hardcover book. At least not a very well known book, and I could find very little on the title: The Birth of Horus According to the Ebers Papyrus*. It is from Jacobus van Dijk, who seems to be a professor and Egyptologist at the Groningen University in Netherlands. Browsing through his own website (made by him, and not by an actual journal or institution), his publications are PDF formats constructed by himself, alone. They are not peer-reviewed published books. His only reputable publication is: Amenemone the Chief Goldsmith: A New Kingdom Tomb in the Teti Cemetery and it is written by him and two other amateur authors. At the very least, this is amateur work compared to Raymond O. Faulkner's work, which was printed by Oxford University and Cambridge Ancient History among others. He published hardcover books, that are actually accessible in libraries. He held a PhD in humanities, on the other hand, there is very little information regarding Jacobus' degrees, and so-called 'publications', which only seem to be published (online) by his institution, again, in PDF formats. That's your source. So much for "scholar" work, huh.

            Regarding Hornung disagreeing with Faulkner's interpretation, I would like to see a direct quote from Hornung regarding that, and not from a very weak 'publication' from an amateur, although educated author.

            On your last statement: I actually read through Jacobus' thesis and reconstruction of events regarding the Coffin spell. In the upper section, you can read about how previous Egyptian figures were impregnated by "fiery semen", but you and the author manipulatively or ignorantly fail to comment on the fact that it was a drop of "fiery semen" to the mouth "and then he spat me out as Shu and Tefnut". This also comes after a clear description of masturbation and not from intercourse. So I ask the same question, how is this the equivalent to losing one's virginity? And how is this relevant anyways?

            There are only two possibilities to Isis' conception:
            1. A mystical and non-intrusive hot flash of lighting.
            2. A more intrusive, but also magical conception where Isis (in bird's form/and not in her physical female goddess body) copulates with a Phallus apparatus on Osiris body which is magically brought back together momentarily.

            None of these interpretations explain how the goddess Isis loses her virginity, at least not in her most natural (yet mystical) body.

          • Mark

            Faulkner may be alone in his interpretation, but unlike you, he is an actual Egyptologist and an expert in history. I would take his educated interpretation much more seriously than I would take yours, the author of the article on this page, or any other Christian skeptic who considers himself a history major.

            I didn't ask you to take my interpretation. It's not my interpretation. I presented the interpretation of Griffiths, Hornung, Fairman, Blackman, and Dijk who are all actual contemporary "actual" Egyptologist.

            Browsing through his own website (made by him, and not by an actual journal or institution), his publications are constructed by himself, alone.

            You really show your ineptitude to source information here. According to WorldCat he has 48 works in 111 publications in 3 languages and 562 library holdings going back to 1975. "So much for "scholar" work, huh." I'd say that's a pretty robust amount of scholarly work. I appreciate that Dr. Djik open accesses his work so I can reference it for the zeitgeist tin foil hat brigade.

            So I ask the same question, how is this the equivalent to losing one's virginity? And how is this relevant anyways?.....None of these interpretations explain how the goddess Isis loses her virginity, at least not in her most natural (yet mystical) body.

            None of it is relevant because you have yet to produce evidence that the Gospel is in anyway connected to the myth of Isis. Repeating myself and others, correlation does not mean causation. A better question is,"How is any of this is equivalent to Mary's perpetual virginity?" None of these interpretations parallel the Gospel account of the incarnation. None of these interpretations parallel the teachings of the Catholic Church on Mary's perpetual virginity and her remaining virgo intacta on her assumption into heaven. They are not equivalent. They are not related to each other.

          • Luis

            You did not present anything directly from Hornung or Blackman. I asked you to quote or send a link of a direct statement from Hornung disagreeing with Faulkner's interpretation of Isis' pregnancy. All you did was provide a journal and unpublished thesis from Dijk.

            Dijk is certainly a legitimate Egyptologist and professor, but his books are unpublished. As I stated before, most of his publications, with the exception of 1-3 hardcover books (with other authors) are online, PDF format publications, that are only verified by unknown or unaccredited sources. If you really want to make the comparison between Dr. Jacobus and Faulker, you can go ahead, but it is an incompetent approach. They are nowhere near the same caliber. This is the equivalent of me providing a source from Oxford or Harvard, while you provided a source from a Community College.

            I do not need to provide that the Gospel is connected to Isis. You continue to fail to comprehend the main points of my argument. The story or end-story here isn't necessarily to validate or connect the Ancient Egyptian Mythology to the Bible. Not only is that not my job, but I don't have interest in making such connection, believe it or not. The entirety of this debate was based around the connections (similarities) between Horus and Jesus, and the extreme takes at what some Christian extremists have to rely on (out of fear) in order to neglect realities and possibilities simply because they have so much credibility on the line. Like I mentioned on multiple occasions already, that is not the point of my argumentation. Neglect, ineptitude and ignorance aren't the answers either.

            If there are similarities we should take them head on, and take a more educational approach, and not this very pathetic and sort-of brainwashing propaganda, where you twist realities to fit your biblical narrative.

          • Mark

            All you did was provide a journal and unpublished thesis from Dijk.

            It was published, JEOL 26 1980 p10-25. You're continue to double down on misinformation and handwaving techniques. Comparing Dijk to a community college is poor taste, ad hominem, and desperate.

            The entirety of this debate was based around the connections (similarities) between Horus and Jesus, and the extreme takes at what some Christian extremists have to rely on (out of fear) in order to neglect realities and possibilities simply because they have so much credibility on the line.

            Now you've done again what you've done in the past in regards to "demigods and apostles and helpers" by moving the goalpost. This is classic use of the Motte-and-bailey fallacy. It may be persuasive to internet zeigeist tin foil hat wearers, but not me. You're argument has never been that there are merely similarities between the Isis and Mary, Horus and Jesus:

            "I'm not arguing against well-read historians, because (unless they have a Christianity bias) most would be able to link 5-7 very strong and interesting correlations between Jesus Christ and Horus, when it comes to their ancient stories."

            "If there is a correlation between Horus and Jesus Christ, we do not need to immediately think of one being 'inferior' or inauthentic, but rather ask, could they have been the same? Was Christianity perhaps influenced by Ancient Egyptian Mythology? These are two valid questions."

            Those are both your early statements which carry with them a strong hint of causal relationship that goes beyond "similarities". I think it is obvious where the neglect, ineptitude and ignorance lie. I'm not twisting any reality to fit any narrative. You, on the other hand, have yet to offer any causal connection and resort to fallacy to shore up whatever argument you're now making.

          • Jim the Scott

            I am waiting for Luis to point us all to a picture of Horis and one of Jesus where they are both barefoot. That and the #12 should make an air tight case for him. ;-)

            Obvious it would prove they are the same....:D.

            Gee he sure showed us eh?:D

            PS on a serious note good job.

          • Luis

            Well Jim, since cameras did not exist back then, I would only be able to provide paintings for you. You know, not 'pictures'. ;)

            And obviously, any intelligent argumentation goes well above your head considering the argument has never been whether they were the same or not, I have made it clear on multiple occasions. As Mark himself stated, correlation does not imply causation.

            Imagine piling up with multiple people, on one guy, and still getting demolished... HA, HA. Nice effort.

          • Jim the Scott

            Paintings are not pictures? K'ay......easy there killer.

          • Luis

            Please don't cry :(

          • Jim the Scott

            Keep the heid!

          • Luis

            I told you not to cry! :(
            Having trouble sleeping at night perhaps? Too many nightmares with that guy Luis that keeps circling around you, huh? LOL.

          • Jim the Scott

            Whit's fur ye'll no go by ye!

          • Luis

            Good child.

          • Jim the Scott

            Wee Bairn.

          • Luis

            Are you leaving a good example to your son, Mr. "Catholic"?

            HA, HA, HA...
            The irony.

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Aweee! We lamb!

            HAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAH clown

          • Jim the Scott

            "Wee Lamb". Meaning little lamb. "We Lamb" means you are identifying as a Lamb in the plural. So easy killer.

          • Luis

            Weeeeeeee lamb,
            HAHAHAHAHHAHA

          • Jim the Scott

            Now ye should sound like yer riding a lamb down the hill.

          • Luis

            Awwwww, are you home and lonely? That's why you're spending the whole day replying to me? Awww, it's okay loner, I'll keep you company :(

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe wee lamb.

          • Luis

            Keep the heid!
            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Easy lamb!

            HE, HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe Wee Lamb.

          • Luis

            Easy there, lamb!

            HA, HA,

          • Jim the Scott

            Keep the Heid.

          • Luis

            Easy there, little whiny lamb!

            HE, HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott

            Keep the Heid.

          • Luis

            Keep crying, little sheep!

            HHEHEE

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe wee lamb.

          • Luis

            Keep crying little sheep!

            HE, HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott

            Keep the Heid.

          • Luis

            Keep whining, lil lamb!

            HEHEHE

          • Jim the Scott

            Super creepy.

          • Luis

            Keep whining lil lamb!

            HEHE

          • Jim the Scott

            Super Lamb.

          • Luis

            Mega lamb!

            Stop using your kid's laptop to argue with strangers online!
            I'm sure he needs it! :)

          • Jim the Scott

            Cheese.

          • Luis

            Bad Catholic!

          • Jim the Scott

            Potato.

          • Luis

            Keep the heid!

          • Jim the Scott

            There is a point?

          • Luis

            :')

          • Jim the Scott

            :D

          • Luis

            I'm not sure where you are getting that information from, regarding whether it is an actual peer-reviewed publication or simply an online journal and personal/professional thesis.
            According to Open Access Journal: JANES (Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society) [ISSN: 0010-2016]
            For the year 1980, it states no information regarding Jacobus publication. (https://janes.scholasticahq.com/issue/463).

            What is even more calling, is that any internet-search regarding Van Dijk Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society (JEOL) 26 1980 p10-25 does not pull up any book, title, or chapter from the journal, and in the instances where this so-called 'publication' is quoted, it is only quoted directly under Van Djik's name, with no information regarding JEOL. The few links that cite him, only link the article directly to Jacobus' website, which seems very questionable at the very least.

            The actual journal you might be referring to is the Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society "Ex Oriente Lux", either a copy of JANES, or who knows what. Certainly an amateur and almost illegitimate reference. Again, so much for 'scholar' references. Even the OP (author of this article) states in his biased narrative that not only should we ask for sources, but even question the authors themselves. If we go by his philosophy, Jacobus is a buffoon in comparison to Faulkner. And not only that, but it is very TELLING how little you actually know your sources, that you cited an INCORRECT/INCOMPLETE title for your source. You're welcome though, I fixed it for you. I fact-checked you once again I guess.

            As far as your assumption at my goal-posts, etcetera. I really find your assumptions amusing. And like I stated multiple times before, I could care less what you believe I am trying to 'accomplish'. If I really were that interested in accomplishing a narrative, or neglect Christianity, I would probably be attempting to write a book of my own, article, or some amateur attempt (similar to Jacobus'). The point here has never been to neglect Jesus Christ, but simply accept these similarities for what they are in history, as similarities.

            You can keep playing with amateur sources, that you are not even familiar with all you want. I cited much more superior sources and many more than just 1. That is all you have. A thesis from Jacobus. HA, HA, HA.

          • Mark

            The actual journal you might be referring the Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society "Ex Oriente Lux" is the either a copy of JANES, or who knows what. Certainly an amateur and almost illegitimate reference. Again, so much for 'scholar' references.

            That would be the actual peer reviewed journal I was referring to, and it's acronym of JEOL should suffice. Also the original link by van Dijk was a PDF entitiles "JEOL_26", remember, the one you called a thesis paper. Here is the website for the peer reviewed "amateur and almost illegitimate" journal :

            https://www.exorientelux.nl/jeol/

            What is amazing to me is that you can connect a picture of the god Ra being towed by 12 people with a different picture of a different god Horus being faced by 12 starred people and Jesus because he had 12 disciples and yet you cannot connect the surname van Dijk to a Dutch publication and you cannot connect the name of a document JEOL_26 with the 26th volume of the peer reviewed journal JEOL. Tinfoil hat stuff.

            As far as your assumption at my goal-posts, etcetera. I really find your assumptions amusing. And like I stated multiple times before, I could care less what you believe I am trying to 'accomplish'... The point here has never been to neglect Jesus Christ, but simply accept
            these similarities for what they are in history, as similarities.

            What assumptions? You clearly are using Motte-and-baily. You shift your claim to suit the sensibility of your claim. When asked for evidence for the claim of a causal connection or a scholarly source for a causal connection you refuse to answer and respond, "I gave you scholarly sources." No, none that claim a causal connection. Faulkner in no way in that paper presents or alludes to the incarnation being similar to the lightning flash. "The pictures speak for themselves." I don't hear any words coming from the picture. I don't see scholarly interpretation that insinuates causal connection. Now its, "I'm merely trying to show similarities." I'm calling BS. You were clearly trying to insinuate a causal connection and I'll continue to re-post your first posts until you admit as much.

            HA, HA, HA.

            The laughter you hear isn't anyone laughing with you. There's only one amateur employing baffonery here.

          • Luis

            "That would be the actual peer reviewed journal I was referring to".

            No you were not. You're either too inept to realize that these two journals are not the same (not published by the same institutions, not edited by the same teams, and not written by the same authors). Either that, or you're simply hoping that this one would get past my head, as it is futile to your argument.

            Not a problem though. Since I have intensively had to explain multiple elements to you before, I will break this one down for you, once again:

            JANES (Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society):
            ISSN: 0010-2016
            The Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society was founded in 1968 at Columbia University, and has been housed at the Jewish Theological Seminary since 1982.
            Recognized scholars: G. R. Driver, H. L. Ginsberg, Jonas Greenfield, William Hallo, Thorkild Jacobsen, Jacob Milgrom, A. L. Oppenheim
            Editor: Ed Greenstein
            _
            JEOL (Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society *Ex Oriente Lux*)
            ISSN: 0075-2118
            JEOL is a peer-reviewed journal on the history, culture, languages, and archaeology of the Ancient Near East. It is published by the Dutch Ancient Near Eastern Society “Ex Oriente Lux” in collaboration with the Netherlands Institute for the Near East (NINO).
            Editor(s): .G. Dercksen (editor-in-chief), K. van Bekkum (Levant), B.J.J. Haring (Egyptology), K.R. Veenhof (Assyriology), and W.J.I. Waal (Anatolia).

            This proves your fallacy. You do not know your own sources. Once again, I have very little else to state when the difference between JANES and JEOL are significant. One is published by Columbia University, one of the most prestigious ivy league schools in the world. These are not the same journals.

            "If we go by your philosophy the 12 letters in "fabrications" can have a causal relationship with the 12 days of Christmas".

            This is such a laughable response, that I'll simply laugh and continue on to the next subject.

            "What assumptions? You clearly are using Motte-and-baily".

            Once again, you're circling around like a schizophrenic. You might want to visit a psychiatrist every once in a while. First of all, I have listed (and organized) far more sources than you have, during the entirety of this debate. Although I have admitted to have used various sources like Wikipedia, blogs, images, books, and multiple other more legitimate (scholar) sources. You on the other hand, have only provided 1 somewhat 'legitimate' source which is Jacobus thesis. In comparison to Faulkner, it is really a laughable source to battle with. Your interpretations and understandings are yours alone, and they are part of your incoherence. Faulkner simply interprets that Isis may have conceived Horus from a flash of lighting, and that is his expert understanding. You're insinuating something that is not congruent, in order to flee the actual debate. Never did I state or insinuate incarnation being similar to the lighting flash.

            The images do speak for themselves when it comes to Isis copulating with Osiris. Perhaps you lack imagination, or some basic logic to understand what is clearly going on in that image, and what is then also explained in the mythology: Isis (in bird-form) copulating with a Phallus on Osiris recovered body.

            Connections are connections. You may not approve of them, you may even dislike them, but they are realities that you will have to live with the rest of your life with.

            Did my laughing irritate you?
            HA, HA, HA,

          • Luis

            "That would be the actual peer reviewed journal I was referring to, and it's acronym of JEOL should suffice".

            No you were not. You are either too oblivious to notice they are not the same journals, not written by the same authors, not edited by the same people, and not published by the same universities. Either that, or you're just really hoping that this one goes over my head as it is futile to your argument.

            As I have done on multiple occasions before, I will break this down nice and easily for you, once again:

            JANES (Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society)
            ISSN: 0010-2016
            JANES, the Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society, was founded in 1968 at Columbia University, and has been housed at the Jewish Theological Seminary since 1982
            Recognized scholars: G. R. Driver, H. L. Ginsberg, Jonas Greenfield, William Hallo, Thorkild Jacobsen, Jacob Milgrom, A. L. Oppenheim
            Editor: Ed Greenstein
            _
            JEOL (Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society *Ex Oriente Lux*
            ISSN: 0075-2118
            JEOL is a peer-reviewed journal on the history, culture, languages, and archaeology of the Ancient Near East. It is published by the Dutch Ancient Near Eastern Society “Ex Oriente Lux” in collaboration with the Netherlands Institute for the Near East (NINO).
            Editorial Team: J.G. Dercksen (editor-in-chief), K. van Bekkum (Levant), B.J.J. Haring (Egyptology), K.R. Veenhof (Assyriology), and W.J.I. Waal (Anatolia).

            They are not the same journal, and incorrectly or incompletely listing a title demonstrates how little you know your sources. One of the journals is published by one of the most prestigious ivy schools in the world (and also a private institution). The journal you provided was published by the University of Groningen.

            If we go by your philosophy the 12 letters in "fabrications" can have a causal relationship with the 12 days of Christmas.

            This comment is so laughable, that I will simply laugh and continue to the next subject.

            What assumptions? You clearly are using Motte-and-baily

            Your conclusions are yours alone, and very incoherent at that. Like I stated multiple times already, I actually provided multiple sources, and admitted to have provided sources from Wikipedia, blogs, images, books, and more; on the other hand, all you provided was a source from Jacobus, which in comparison to Faulkner (my source), would really be a laughable comparison. I also never stated that Faulkner interpreted the flash of lighting as incarnation, so you're either desperate for points at this stage, or you're just simply schizophrenic. The images, if you use some basic logic and imagination, clearly depict how Isis copulates (in bird form) with a Phallus on Osiris recovered body. Not only is that clearly depicted, but also explained in multiple texts regarding the mythology behind Horus and Isis. Once again, Isis, the goddess of rebirth, fertility, magic.

            "The laughter you hear isn't anyone laughing with you. There's only one amateur employing baffonery here."

            Did my laughter make you lose your cool?
            HA, HA, HA

          • Mark

            I never said they were the same journal. Please don't put your own wrong conclusions into my mouth. I never referenced JANES. You don't need to breakdown anything other than how you came to than your how your thinking on van Dijk being an amateur unpublished thesis. This is your claim. I will say, this is telling how, rather than admit you were stone cold mistaken you try to make it about me. Then you double down on van Dijk being an amateur. This is uncharitable. You're acting like a child. Grow up. Additionally, this is exactly how the zeitgeist followers act when I've read responses on this and other sites. It's exactly what the author in the OP said would happen.

            Your conclusions are yours alone, and very incoherent at that.

            You said I made assumptions. I asked what they were. You reply with this. Now you say I made conclusions that are mine alone. Which conclusions are mine alone? Again, like I've seen multiple times you call me biased. What type of bias am I employing and give me an example of how my data analysis is bias. For example, deselecting data subjectively from multiple experts because it doesn't conform to the conclusion I want met. You know, like how you disregard the translation of van Dijk, Griffiths, and Hornung for Faulkner to fit the virgin narrative.

            If Faulkner is a superior Egyptologist to van Dijk can you please provide evidence or how you reason one is a revered expert and the other is "amateur and almost illegitimate". Using a comparison of universities is not comparing the intellectuals. FWIW the University of London is ranked by QS 350th. That's where Faulkner taught. That doesn't mean anything, however, if his "lighting" is correct and not "fiery semen" I could honestly care less. The story of Horus conception doesn't parallel the incarnation. It certainly isn't causally linked except in the mind of Murdock and her tin foil hat brigade.

          • Luis

            I never said they were the same journal. Please don't put your own wrong conclusions into my mouth.

            Incorrect, you incompletely listed the journal's title erroneously. You stated Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society, while the correct and complete title is Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society *Ex Oriente Lux*. If you do not complete the title, then you are referencing the incorrect journal. I broke it down and made the distinctions clear to make you realize the significant difference between the two journals. In a few words, what you are referencing is not high level scholar material. You can disagree all you want, but as the author of this same article admits and advice/s to do; it is not only about referencing scholarly work, but making sure to research about the authors/professors to make sure they are accredited individuals. It is important to research their background, to figure out whether they are beginners (as Jacobus for example), or well-known authors with PhDs; their distinctive universities, journals, official publications, and more.

            You said I made assumptions. I asked what they were.

            I do not care to showcase or prove your bias to you. I mean, the fact that you are a dedicated Catholic, obviously plays a major role in your opinion regarding Ancient Egyptian Mythology, and its potential connection (even if purely coincidental) to Christianity. Also, what are your assumptions?
            1. That I am a Zeitgeist or a fan of Murdock. (incorrect).
            2. That my goal is to disprove Christianity or defame Jesus Christ. (incorrect).
            3. That I am stating or affirming that the connections between ancient Egyptian mythology and Christianity have a deeper reason, and that Christianity is a copy of the Horus/Isis mythology. (incorrect).
            4. That I have anger or I am a full-blown conspirator looking to undermine Christianity. (incorrect).

            Just for the record, Faulkner may have taught in the University of London, but he has publications with Oxford and other immensely important universities. He has a much longer record, and a larger number of more recognized/popular publications that can actually be found worldwide, and not just in Netherlands, for example.

            As far as the "unreferenced" image of Isis, it is actually important considering you were making strange assumptions and guesses regarding Isis copulating while in bird form. This is just to make it perfectly clear that Isis had a female's body, and when she actually copulated with Osiris, she was not in that same body. Again, the goddess of magic, rebirth, healing, and fertility.

            Godspeed my friend.

          • Mark

            and its potential connection (even if purely coincidental) to Christianity

            I wouldn't even call it coincidental that a god of ancient Egypt transforms into a bird and copulates with another dead god. You just throw some similarities out there like we can assume it is causal. Here in the midwest we have a saying, if you throw enough manure at the barn wall eventually some of it sticks. I know the difference between brown paint and manure. You don't seem to. You deny being a fan of Murdock, yet you cut and paste her flib flabbery from Zeitgeist sites like it is convincing. When it is denied due to rational reasons you cry bias. As such you don't know good reasoning. Also you don't understand bias and how it relates to criticism of evidence. There are clear ways to establish bias in scholarly work. You haven't even brushed past them. Lastly you're inability to admit you were stone cold wrong about van Dijk: "In a few words, what you are referencing is not high level scholar material." In a few words, "It is." You're just being daft and childish. I asked for your criteria for such a claim and this is how you respond? Grown ups admit when they are wrong.

          • Luis

            Just because you would not consider it 'coincidental', does not mean it isn't an actual coincidence in religious/mythical human history. What's interesting is that nobody has to "throw manure at the barn until some of it sticks". In fact, this article was written long before I even entered this site and stated my opinion. That alone, plus multiple other comparisons that you can find online (between Horus and Jesus) are enough to make you realize that it isn't just "throwing manure at the barn". If it was, you would not need an entire article trying to undermine these similarities, and neglect some of them. I think I have told you about 5-6 times already, read through the OP's article again, he admits multiple similarities; just simply tries to make them less significant. Which again, I never denied that they were not less significant than the biblical and powerful life-story of Jesus Christ.

            Yes, I deny being a fan of Murdock because I did not even know who he was until I cited him and you went ballistic. Well, maybe I may have heard his name come up in the past, but never really paid any attention. Most of the information I copied and pasted (at the very beginning of our debate) was from blogs by multiple users, so I gathered information from multiple sources, not just one. For example, you have failed to provide any real valid source except for Dijk.

            Also you don't understand bias and how it relates to criticism of evidence

            Wow, the irony. It truly is pointless to even continue having a debate with someone so close-minded, clearly not just biased, but significantly biased, and at times, very childish.

            The truth always prevails my friend.
            Godspeed.

          • Mark

            That alone, plus multiple other comparisons that you can find online (between Horus and Jesus) are enough to make you realize that...

            realize that everything on the internet is true. w w w. bfro.net/gdb/

            . I think I have told you about 5-6 times already, read through the OP's article again, he admits multiple similarities;

            So what? everytime you have told me that I've replied with similarities does not denote causality. Evidence is needed to make such assumption. It is a fallacy to say similarities denote causal relationships. Fallacies don't arrive at truth except by accident.

            Yes, I deny being a fan of Murdock because I did not even know who he was until

            He was a she. She was an essential part of the article. Every piece of "scholarly evidence" you provided were perfectly cut and pasted excerpts from internet sites maintained by her Zeitgeist disciples that continue to wear their tinfoil hats and cater to dullards that can't evaluate evidence or read books. The author of the OP clearly spells out the tactic used by these sites and you've followed suit perfectly. You provided Faulkner, which you brainlessly cut and pasted from one of these sites that uses his work out of context to make the reader believe Faulkner suggested some type of causal relationship. I'm the one who had to provide the whole article to see the right context where he admits his translation is not normative and contrary to existing translations. So if you're not a Murdock or Zeitgeist fan, stop copying and pasting garbage from their fan sites.

          • Luis

            You do realize the comparisons (online) come from the historical and mythological anecdotes that historians and well-read individuals considered to be similar. In a few words, the information that is on the internet comes from humans. Comparing these connections to big foot, or flat Earth for example is ignorant and childish. Horus was a mythological creature. He did not necessarily exist, but his story did.

            In fact, it's quite bizarre to see someone so emotional and infuriated over the story of Horus and Isis, and other mythical characters, which I have admired on multiple occasions that they did not exist.

            Also, sure, since I was not entirely aware of Murdock's identity nor his thesis, I simply shared some of the arguments I found in various blog-sites. But the facts remain. The story has been told. I shared multiple scholarly articles, not just Faulkner, but I really don't want to continue wasting more time with someone as negligent as you are. You can literally scroll down through our back-and-forth and find at the very least 10 different good credible sources that I provided for both Horus and his potential 12 disciples/guards/followers, as well as Isis potential virginity.
            You shared one credible source my friend, only one credible source that disputed my takes. And again, whether you want to admit it or not, it is an amateurish source as compared to the ones I provided.

            You continue to make ignorant claims like "brainlessly cut and pasted", while not even acknowledging the fact that many of the links of websites you provided, I had already previously read very well through way before you shared the links. So again, you're looking sort of foolish to be honest. And one more thing, I absolutely schooled you on the Ancient Egyptian Mythology regarding the specific subjects discussed. You did not even know what Isis was a goddess of, which again, completely correlates to her ability to have been a virgin.

            Emotional my friend, emotional.

          • Mark

            You do realize the comparisons (online) come from the historical and

            mythological anecdotes that historians and well-read individuals

            considered to be similar.

            More hand waving. You've provided reference to 4 authors: Faulkner, Massey, Botterwick, and Murdock. One of those is a contemporary historian and her work in astrotheology is considered pseudohistory and has been throughly rejected by most historians. One is an amateur Egyptologist from over a hundred years ago, one is an OT scholar from 50 years ago, one is an Egyptologist. None of them have access to the online anecdotes you hand wave towards. List the sites. List the historian. Reference primary work. You can't do that because you cannot even decipher if van Dijk is respected Egyptologist and you don't source the sites of your copy and pasting. I've had to find them by searching.

            He did not necessarily exist, but his story did.

            That would make Horus the same as Sasquatch by your own standards.

            Also, sure, since I was not entirely aware of Murdock's identity nor his thesis,

            He was a she. Again. This nonsense all comes from her published work under a pseudoname to avoid scholastic critique.

            I simply shared some of the arguments I found in various blog-sites.

            Blogs are typically not scholarly level work. If they are they cite the author of the blog, whom will attach their credentials to their authorship. There are academics here, that's what they do. That's a pretty straight forward. When you use "Dudekin" as a reference and cannot reproduce the source even when asked for it I cannot help you. You'd just fail after middle school with this level of scholasticism. I'm not being emotional about it. You claim 10 different credible sources. I've seen one. I've seen a lot of cut and pasting. I've seen unsourced pictures that "speak for themselves". I've yet to see one credible contemporary Egyptologist that even sniffles at a causal connection between Horus and Jesus. Feel free to repost the contemporary referenced scholarly work from an Egyptologist that presents evidence of a causal relationship and I'll gladly eat crow. Or hand wave. Or claim you already have. Or smoke pot with Dudekin.

            Asking for me to support my claim? What claim? I posted the properly referenced picture from the 7th hour of the Amduat with reference to the book from Hornung on it. Hornung doesn't agree with Murdock's claim about this picture. The caption on the picture is produced by Murdock from her material. This is not Hornung's caption. This is your (Murdock's/Massey's) claim not mine. Their work has been debunked for all intensive purposes. Only amateur middle schoolers might take any of it seriously. Prove me wrong. Present the primary sourced contemporary academic material that suggest a causal relationship. Or hand wave again. Or claim you have again. Or tell me to google search it again. I want to be wrong at this point. If you think I'm losing the argument all you have to do is present a single scholarly level peer reviewed work that supports your claim of a causal relationship and I'll gladly say you're right and you win. Just reply with the link or citation. I dare you to win this argument: Here are the criteria: 1/ Primary source 2/ contemporary 3/ peer reviewed 4/ contains evidence of the claim of a causal relationship. This would preclude Murdock because she published her jibberish under a pseudoname and it wasn't peer reviewed (gee I wonder why?).

          • Luis

            And also, just in case you had not read another response I made to one of your older comments below. Here is the breakdown so far (even taking some elements from the OP of this article himself).

            I'm reposting the similarities/connections, of whatever it you might call them. I completely agree correlation does not imply causation. Interesting connections, and that is what they are. You can hold your bible strongly, and dance around the subject, you can try to pin-point your sources (very few which you actually provided) all you want, but the realities and strong potential possibilities remain the same:

            * Jesus and Horus both healed the sick (he has no point to contradict this because it is a very well known element of the Horus mythology) -- Instead, he tries to make it seem unimportant or different by claiming that Jesus had a greater purpose for healing the sick, while Horus did not necessarily have a purpose. I can agree with the last assessment, but it does not take away the similarity.

            - The Crucifixion connection seems to be nonsensical to me and I will not waste my time with that. Clearly, Ancient Egyptians did not crucify.

            * They both resurrected. The author does not negate the fact. Horus dies by the sting of a Scorpion and is then resurrected by a spell from Thoth who comes from heaven. Instead, the author (Jon Sorensen) simply attempts to discredit this similarity, again by highlighting how Jesus resurrection was far more important to humanity than Horus resurrecting (again, I do not necessarily disagree with Horus being a much, much, much less important figure in the broad spectrum, but it is another connection).

            * Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert. Jon Sorensen does not negate this either. He just argues that Jesus was tempted by Satan, while Horus had a battle with Set (the god of deserts). Sure, temptation might differ from 'battle', but it is quite interesting how in both Horus and Jesus stories, their nemesis both confront them in the desert. It is not necessarily a massive point, but it would be interesting to see how many other mystical or religious creatures hold as many similarities? It's obviously even more calling when the story of Horus came before Jesus Christ.

            * Both had virgin mothers. This has been argued on this comment-section a lot, but at the very least, Isis (Horus mother) in her physical female and goddess body, she was a virgin to our knowledge. There is no other telling of Isis having 'intercourse' other than when she turns into a bird, and copulates with Osiris Phallus in order to conceive Horus. There are some Egyptologist who argued Isis gave birth by a hot flash of lighting. Perhaps Virgin Mary was more 'divine' in a sense, but Isis passes the physical virginity check.

            * Both had 12 disciples. Yes and no. Christ's story regarding his 12 disciples is far more clear, and better explained than Horus and his 12 potential followers (although more like guards). Still interesting to have the number 12 as another potential connection. Jesus had 12 very dedicated apostles, while Horus again, just seemed to have 12 guards watching over him, or watching certain things for him.

            - Horus was definitely not baptized.

            Connections are connections though. They should be analyzed and studied. Could religions in Ancient times have been influenced by mythology before them? It seems somewhat likely, although not necessarily. We know Jesus Christ existed. Horus was mythical, which means we do not know (and most likely) he did not exist. But the story did, could Christ have been present before Rome? As the bible says "I am the beginning and the end". The truth is there so many questions which will never be answered (at least during our lifetime). No pastor or expert can claim to interpret and explain every bible verse to perfection. Most of our evidence is anecdotal. Could the bible itself have some errors considering it was written by humans and not God? Is it truly God's word? Has it been manipulated? Has it been completely and properly translated?

          • Mark

            Here's the real breakdown. You keep reposting the same garbage from the same astrotheology zeitgeist cult sites. You don't know what causal evidence looks like. You don't know the difference between similarities and causal evidence. You don't know how to supply scholarly evidence for a claim. You don't know how to do scholarly research. You do know how to play rhetorical games, laugh with yourself, put forth evidence out of context, and argue like a child. You apparently think Catholics hold their Bible like a literal transcript from God. We are not fundamentalist, you are arguing with yourself, as such you are also embarrassing yourself. I'm trying my hardest to play nice, but it's so hard to carry on a serious intellectual conversation with you.

          • Luis

            Actually, the moment you showcased your vigorous religious bias; was when you demonstrated you were unable to carry a serious intellectual conversation. If anything, I am the one that has tried being extremely respectful and discrete regarding Christianity. Part of the reason why I am not a "zeitgeist" as you constantly repeat (since you have no other arguments) is because my father and sister are both strong Christians, while my mother is a Catholic. I personally believe in God, as a greater force, and as a perfect being. I recognize Jesus Christ and the virgin Mary, and believe many (not all) of the teachings the bible gives us.

            Having said that, if anything I have been the one playing nice during the entirety of this debate. Instead of rejecting your religion, I simply stated and gathered legitimate information regarding the mythology around Horus and Isis. If I wanted to not play nice, for example (and I state this with all the fear and respect to God that I have, as I truly believe in God's perfection and existence), I could have simply rejected your thesis and religion as well. For all I know, all you have is a book (bible) filled with anecdotal evidence and not concrete proof. Whether virgin Mary was an actual virgin could be up for debate, whether she had an actual virgin birth (which many experts claim was mistranslated in the bible) is up for debate. Whether Jesus Christ walked on water, healed the sick, etcetera, could all potentially be up for debate as well. Not necessarily because I do not believe in it (I choose to believe); but because all we have is anecdotal evidence. You think you know it all, from what you have learned from the bible, but you, in reality, have no idea where you're heading after your time is gone here on Earth.

            You can think you know, you can even believe you know. But the reality is, none of us know what is next, or if there is even a 'next'. No pastor, no philosopher, no history expert, and no scientist can tell you what will happen. I'd suggest you practice some humility, my friend. Not to mention, that if you truly were a Catholic, you have represented yourself as a terrible example of one during the entirety of this debate. Perhaps you should consider repentance. My thoughts are God would not approve of you.

          • Mark

            Even if your ad hominem are true you're still using sophistry to make causal connections. I do need to repent for many things, including my pride, but certainly not for my commitment to rational truth. I'm sorry truth is offensive. When you grow up you'll learn it is offensive for good reason(ing).

          • Luis

            Your truth is not the truth. Your version of reality, is not reality. Specially not, when you specifically target certain criteria in order to fulfill your religious narrative.

            You don't faze me ol' Mark, not even a little.

            The truth hurts, that is true. And that is precisely why you have been overly emotional during the entirety of our debate.

          • Luis

            I should also add and inform you:
            Copying and pasting links of web-pages that I have already visited does not get you any points. Not to mention they also do not count as another source. So far, you still have only provided 1. I have provided multiple.

          • Mark

            Text without context is pretext. One of the problems with cutting and pasting from web-sites without reading the actual journals (which I gave your) is that it becomes obvious that the text is present ambiguously. Thus why you fail to see where in quoting Faulkner, he openly presents his translation as being contrary to his contemporary counterparts that he names in the article you take a snippet from.

          • Luis

            I'm not even sure you understood my point. You shared multiple links of websites, that I had already visited and read through since I had been either using those same sources, or learning through those same links you provided. So since you felt the need to share them over and over again, I am telling you, I read them before you even shared the links.

            And yes, I am very aware Faulkner gives his own interpretation; "where I differ and hope to be understood"/ or something to that extent. If you think that makes his conclusion invalid that is up to you to believe. Regardless, a bird copulating with a "dead corpse" (as you called it) is never the equivalent to losing one's virginity. Laughing out loud.

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            The psuedo-likeness of your position concerning Horus is interesting:

            Horus: 12 Disciples/Servants.

            Christ: 12 Apostles/Friends.

            An apostle differs from a disciple... and Christ went to great lengths to position Himself as the 12 Apostles servant.

  • Liz Harkess

    David is Djahuty thoth , Abraham was named Djahuty in egypt and Thutmoses means son of Thoth Djahuty . In Arabian countries Thoth is Nebo . In India he is Chitragupta. Osiris is Seir you will find Seir in your bible and Horus is the risen Osiris .

  • Liz Harkess

    What your saying is that there is a god and he made men from clay . First of all this is unscietific , science knows man is made from living cells not dirt or decended from dirt men . Next youll find the god Yahweh had a spouse asherah or asheroth. Asherah or Asheroth is the hindu Durga a tripple goddess you will find in egypt i.e hathor and Sekemet . Sekemet is the beloved of Ptah as hathor she is the mother and wife of Horus . Thoth Djahuty David is the heart and tongue of ptah or ra. Thoth is said to have taken over the role of Saraswati, Saraswati is the personification of speach or Akasha. In the beggining was the word and the word was with god and was god . Ptah is Brahmah in Egypt . The breath of life represents Prana ,fire the presence of god or the holy spirit . Baptism with fire and water anyone .

    • BCE

      Clay? Don't pick on clay as if insignificant... clays are now considered the key to life

  • Ficino

    Does anyone know how many leading figures in groups' histories are said to have been born of a virgin and/or a divine father? I wondered this when rereading the following story about Plato's conception and birth:

    "Speusippus in Plato's Funeral Feast, and Clearchus in his Encomium on Plato, and Anaxilaides in his second book On Philosophy say that there was a story in Athens that Ariston tried to force himself on Perictione, who was then in the bloom of youth, and was rebuffed; and that when he ceased resorting to force, he saw a vision of the god Apollo, after which he abstained from conjugal relations under Perictione gave birth." Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Philosophers, III.2 (trans. Mensch).

    Mensch's note 5, on this story, says "The story suggests that Apollo was responsible for Plato's conception, since Perictione, though married to Ariston, had thus far remained a virgin (or so the phrase translated 'in the bloom of youth' implies."

    Speusippus, Plato's nephew and successor as scholarch in the Academy, is a pretty good authority that such a story was told in Athens.

    As with Jesus' genealogy, that of Plato is traced back to a divine progenitor, since in the previous paragraph Diogenes says that Plato's ancestry went back to Poseidon on his mother's side. Some authorities he quotes also say that Plato's father, Ariston, traced his ancestry too back to Poseidon. Claims of divine ancestry were common for noble clans in Athens. But, as with Joseph's side of Jesus' lineage, the question arises, how to unify ancestry on the father's side from a hero or a god with a claim that the subject was born of a virgin by divine impregnation or the like.

    Obviously, Diogenes himself does not explicitly say that Plato was born of a virgin already legally bound to a man but impregnated by a god. But as Mensch says, his tale seems to bear that import, and it's hard to see what other construction we are supposed to put on it. An interesting parallel with the Infancy Narratives.

    You may ask, So, Ficino, are you a MYTHICIST? Heh heh, I am only an old gerund grinder.

    • OMG

      1) Did Plato rise from the dead?
      2) Did Plato's followers form an institution extant two millenia later?
      3) Did Plato's institutions provide impetus and implementation of other institutions or the common good of man (i.e., universities, schools, hospitals, hospitality, etc.)
      4) Did mankind improve in any way as a result of Plato's virgin birth?
      5) Had Plato's virgin birth been prophesied?

      You grind gerunds. I'll play Chopin.

      • Ficino

        OMG, your questions are real posers, and I didn't raise any of them in what I wrote. I'm stumped, have no clue, maybe yes, maybe no.

        Keep practicing those etudes!

        • OMG

          If this is a site for regaling each other with narratives of legend, someone ought to tell Brandon.

          If all the virgin births you cite are equivalent, why mention any at all?

          The mention of one concedes the possibility, its probability, its occurrence in fact. One such occurrence should (and does) have infinite and eternal consequence.

          Brown calls to mind a Biblical scientist whose results are non-verifiable. Not my problem, so we agree on that!

          Those etudes would be the nocturnes. I like the sound of a sick room. Guess that's why I like Chopin (who was a lapsed but deathbed-converted Catholic) and others like him.

          • Ficino

            If this is a site for regaling each other with narratives of legend, someone ought to tell Brandon.

            Well, the OP starts off with Horus in the title...

          • OMG

            Thanks for the orientation! I was COMPLETELY unaware. I simply looked at new posts, saw yours, and replied. What is old is ever new...

          • Luis

            "The mention of one concedes the possibility, its probability, its occurrence in fact. One such occurrence should (and does) have infinite and eternal consequence".

            Actually, not necessarily. Verses and anecdotal evidence is not congruent proof, at least not by today's standards. So we can discuss mythology and legend in an educated, but practical approach. To then insinuate that it is a scientific possibility, or that it could have actually happened is a whole different subject.

          • Jim the Scott

            Luis is barking mad. Threatening to tell on me to my mother.....begging me to cry....(What is that about? Is it some sort of feddish?) and other things.

            Thought I do think it would be most entertaining if he and Philip Rand went at it.

            Cheers my dear. God be with you.

          • OMG

            I know! Right?

            I've not read many of his posts, but I've decided not to reply to his. Someone really ought to explain to him that his word is not the only one which exists and that honey is better than vinegar, threats, and feddish! I cannot help but love your misspellings and the image of Phillie and Louey.

          • Luis

            Threats? Now that is a new one. Please inform me of when I allegedly threatened anyone. If you're referring to "die by your own sword", that was simply a phrase, relax.

            And misspellings? Is that how desperate you are? Please state the misspellings. Unless you're perhaps referring to Jim the Scott, or should I say Jim, the clown.

            Amusing at the very least.
            Now on a serious note, I made valid responses to your statements and questions, and you have yet to reply, perhaps you're just simply realizing how little we actually know regarding the supernatural.

          • OMG

            Jeez Luis,
            I reconsidered my decision. If you must write to me and accuse me of incoherence without explaining why you failed to understand something I wrote, I must write to tell you that your saying I should "Die by [my] own sword" was meaningful in a way you may not have guessed.

            Since my 'sword' is the Word of the Lord, I intend to do exactly as you hope, wish, threaten, etc. I mightily hope to die by, on, through and with my sword.

            Now I hope you have a nice day, ok?

          • Luis

            Actually Philip Rand seems like an intellectual, unlike you, and perhaps OMG.

            Also, I guess I hit a touchy part by asking you to go cry to mommy. Don't worry, a lot of people do very well crying by themselves too.

            "Barking mad" .... HA, HA, HA

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            It's ok bud. It's a-okay.

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe! Wee lamb.

          • Luis

            It's going to be AAAAA-OKAY.
            Hahahaha

          • Jim the Scott

            It is.

          • Luis

            ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Is it?

          • Luis

            So you keep asking questions to literally an expression?
            How bored and lonely are you? Again, the irony when it was you who first replied to me regarding being home alone too much.

            HA, HA, HA

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            You repeat yourself more than a broken disc.
            SAAAAAAAD :(

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Easy clown.

          • Jim the Scott

            Awe wee Lamb.

          • Luis

            Awee wee clown!

            HA, HA, HA ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Easy there little lamb.

            YEEEEEEHAAAAAAA!

            I hope your son doesn't grow up to be a complete weirdo like yourself :(

          • Jim the Scott

            Creepy.

          • Luis

            Creepy who? Your won?

            HE, HE, HE

          • Jim the Scott

            very creepy.

          • Luis

            Your son? Creepy him? Creepy is he?
            He is creepy?

            HEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHE

          • Jim the Scott

            Easy killer.

          • Luis

            Easy killa ;)

          • Jim the Scott

            Kill the easy.

          • Luis

            Where's your kid at

          • Jim the Scott

            Creepy....

          • Luis

            Creeeeepy

          • Jim the Scott

            Potato.

          • Luis

            Clown.

          • Jim the Scott

            Cheese.

          • Luis

            Say cheesee

          • Jim the Scott

            Rumpelstiltskin.

          • Luis

            :)

          • Jim the Scott

            @! Y x Teebone.

      • David Nickol

        5) Had Plato's virgin birth been prophesied?

        Time to let go of that one. In the Greek translation (Septuagint) Isaiah 7:14 was mistranslated from the original Hebrew ("maiden") to the Greek word for virgin. Unless you consider the mistranslation miraculous, there was no "prophecy" of the virginal conception. Neither the NAB nor the RSVCE uses "virgin" in the translation of Isaiah 7:14.

        • Johannes Hui

          Looks like the beginning of a long debate over here on whether the LXX/Septuagint was correct to translate “alma”/“young woman” (which has a wider semantic range than virgin, but which can also be used to refer to a virgin, depending on context) into virgin. LOL

          • David Nickol

            Probably a more fruitful discussion would be what the New Testament authors meant by fulfill. I posted this some time ago from John L. McKenzie's entry on Prophecy in Dictionary of the Bible:

            It is a common misconception of OT prophecy that it means "prediction" . . . . This misconception cannot be based upon the NT conception nor on the formula "that it might be fulfilled." Often there is obviously no prediction (Mt 2:15); there is reference to an OT character or event which illustrates the reality of the process of salvation, the reality which is "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ. He and the Church are the new Israel, and their experience appears in the experience of the old Israel, much as the OT ancestor shows in his life and character the life and character of his descendants. Many of these predictions are intended to illustrate the place of the redemptive suffering in the process of salvation; the Jews were not receptive to the idea of a Messiah who saved through suffering and death and it was necessary to show that the scandal of the cross appears in the messianism of the OT . . . . In these passages the NT writers take a specialized and apologetic view of the OT which is not intended to be a general exhaustive interpretation. "Fulfillment" is more than the fulfillment of a prediction; it is the fulfillment of a hope, a destiny, a plan, a reality.

          • Ficino

            As for prophecies recorded in a literary tradition about a figure revered in that tradition, they are legion. Yes, there is one about Plato, too: "Socrates is said to have dreamt that he had a newborn swan in his lap, and that the bird suddenly sprouted feathers and flew up with a sweet cry. And the next day Plato was introduced to him, and Socrates recalled that the young man was the bird of the dream." Diogenes Laertius III.5.

          • Johannes Hui

            Yes, that too.

            In addition, we should not be quick to assume prophesy is (only) about foretelling/prediction. Prophesy may instead serve the function of forthtelling in some context. Or both forthtelling and foretelling.

            And “fulfillment” may be in the form of typology instead of a wooden enactment of a prophesy. (perhaps: “Out of Egypt I called my son”)

            Or fulfillment may be about achieving what lies in the deeper intention behind a text, rather than the literal words of a text (eg a real fulfillment of the spirit of laws even though not the letters of the laws).

          • David Nickol

            I was googling various topics recently and came across a video of Bishop Barron telling us that according to a Pew Research poll, 70% of Catholics don't believe in the real presence. And yet in forums like this, we have Catholics clearly from the other extreme trying to convince "non-Catholics" that it is a certain and sacred Catholic Truth that Isaiah predicted the virgin birth or that Genesis 3:15 refers to the Virgin Mary. One sometimes gets the impression that certain Catholics would be more offended by skeptics questioning the biblical "prophecies" than by denying the actual events (allegedly) prophesied.

            I think I understand the Catholic concept of the hierarchy of truth, and unless I am very much mistaken, the Marian dogmas themselves are far higher in the hierarchy than beliefs about biblical prophecies. It is not an attack on Mary or the Church to doubt or deny that Isaiah 7:14 is a "prediction" of the virgin birth, but no doubt Catholic biblical scholars who dismiss such old beliefs are considered heretics!

          • Johannes Hui

            Hi David,

            I suppose Roman Catholic scholars can avoid being labeled as heretics by writing something along this line:
            “If faith in church authority is not being considered, then the first century historical data would render it probable that Mary had other children” or “A historian who is not constrained by church dogma would conclude from the data that the immaculate conception of Mary was probably not a belief in the first few centuries” etc.

            I suppose this would then enable the RC scholar to maintain both academic integrity and church recognition at the same time, right?

          • Dennis Bonnette

            Since you are all talking about the dogma of the virgin birth of Christ, you might be interested in the wide number of arguments favoring it I just ran across from Bishop Fulton j. Sheen, written back in 1952:

            http://catholictradition.org/Mary/virgin-birth.htm

            I am no expert on this subject, but to my eyes at least, some of his arguments are ones I have not seen before. They might lend some breadth to the foundations for this important Church teaching. Sometimes it is too easy to dismiss a belief because of controversy over a single foundation, when, perhaps, there are many other foundations that also support the same belief.

          • David Nickol

            I remember watching Bishop Sheen on television when I was a kid.

            It strikes me that Catholics sometimes go overboard to downplay the importance of the Bible. Yes, it can be very reasonably argued that the Bible is a product of the Church and not the other way around. But even according to the Catholic Church the Bible (averaging about 1200 pages in a readable font) is a very hefty tome, every word of which is divinely inspired and inerrant. Tradition (with a capital T) is really not that easy to define and quote, but we all can know and quote what's in the Bible. A 1200-page divinely inspired and inerrant text is nothing to sneeze at!

            Of course the Church can't seem to pin down the definition of inerrant to everyone's satisfaction, making the claim of inerrancy somewhat less impressive than it sounds.

          • Dennis Bonnette

            If Christian revelation is genuine, then why would not one expect a book inspired by God to be inerrant?

            It is one thing for the book to be inerrant, but does that entail that one's interpretation of it must also be inerrant? The Protestant problem is that private inspiration often leads to conflicting doctrines.

            That is one reason why Catholics rely on the Magisterium.

            And I don't know that the Magisterium has offered very many claims of how specific texts must be understood.

          • David Nickol

            If Christian revelation is genuine, then why would not one expect a book inspired by God to be inerrant?

            One would expect it. My point was that some Catholics (including Bishop Sheen in the linked article, in my opinion) seem to downplay the value of 1200 pages of inspired, inerrant text!

            And my other point is that saying the Bible is inerrant is not particularly helpful if there is no agreed-upon definition of inerrant.

            And I don't know that the Magisterium has offered very many claims of how specific texts must be understood.

            I believe that was one of the points made by Pius XII when he unshackled Catholic Biblical scholars with Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943).

          • Dennis Bonnette

            And one further point I have heard. That is that, since we do not possess the actual original physical texts themselves, ultimately any apparent discrepancy can be explained by recognizing that what we have in hand may not be an accurate text or translation. In that case, the original may, indeed, be "inerrant," but we will never know for sure what it said!

            That is another reason why I am glad Catholicism does not depend on sola scriptura.

          • Jim the Scott

            @dennisbonnette:disqus

            I don't know how this one got by me? Here is the problem sir David Nickol.

            >A 1200-page divinely inspired and inerrant text is nothing to sneeze at!

            Except it doesn't make Luther's perspicuity doctrine anymore true.

            >Of course the Church can't seem to pin down the definition of inerrant to everyone's satisfaction, making the claim of inerrancy somewhat less impressive than it sounds.

            The Traditional definition stands. Whatever Holy Writ asserts as true on any subject is true. If the Bible teaches Science the Science it would teach is true. The problem is identifying where it is teaching science and how. Same with history and other topics.

            >It strikes me that Catholics sometimes go overboard to downplay the importance of the Bible.

            Rather we are not bibliolators like the Protestants.

          • OMG

            Hi Johannes,
            What is 'the first century historical data [that] would render it probable that Mary had other children'?

          • David Nickol

            Mark 3:31-35

            31 His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
            32 A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers [and your sisters] are outside asking for you.”
            33 But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and [my] brothers?”
            34 And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
            35[ For] whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

            Mark 6:3-4

            3 Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
            4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and among his own kin and in his own house.”

          • OMG

            Well, John P. Meier could be wrong, right? (Who is he, BTW? Anyone we should know?) The logic is skewed. Jesus did not say that whoever does the will of God is his cousin....

            Jesus said that whoever does the will of God is his brother, sister, and mother. Those who do the will of God (those who seek to know and obey His will) are his kin. Those in spiritual relationship with him are his family.

            Matthew 24:35 has it: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. More important than the material world is the spiritual.
            Those who are in spiritual relationship with Jesus are his heirs. Paul elucidates in Romans 8:15-17 that Christians “have received a Spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!'" That "Father" word does not refer to Joseph, and that "sons" word includes women.

            And of course, the word "brother" means close relative. It does not strictly and solely apply to one's blood brother, BRO.

            Finally, if Jesus had a blood brother, He surely would have entrusted his mother to that brother rather than to the disciple John.

          • David Nickol

            I don't think you get Meier's point about brothers/cousins in Mark 3:31-35, and I doubt an explanation would help.

            Who is he, BTW? Anyone we should know?

            Only if you are interested in Catholic Biblical scholarship. He is the author of the five-volume work A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (1991-2016).

          • OMG

            Five, huh? Maybe No. 6 would help me get his point. Barring that, I'll rely on you to keep me informed.

            Your and Meier's seemingly strict focus on the historical critical approach to Scripture ignores the other approaches which 'historical' Fathers, Doctors, and theologians have employed since scripture was written. These hermeneutical norms include not only the literal but also the allegorical, anagogical, and tropological. To neglect the use of one of these norms limits one's understanding. Not using all methods of interpretation will serve some final purpose, but it won't be the historically and traditionally complete one.

          • Jim the Scott

            Meier is a somewhat liberal scholar. David for some reason treats their work as Gospel but to be fair we treat the conservative ones same way since they uphold the Gospel.;-)

            But he is a skeptic and we are believers.

            In John 19:25 Our Lady has a "sister" named "Mary the wife of Clopas." I find it a bit hard to believe St Ann and St Joakim has two daughters with the same name. So they must be cousins. This is not the Bob Newhart Show.

          • Mark

            Or she could have been a sister-in-law. You and OMG also forget to offer that the brothers could be half brothers from a previous marriage Joseph had. He was quite older than Mary. All perfectly rational, congruent and acceptable within the tradition.

          • Jim the Scott

            According to the Gospel of John Mary the Mother of Jesus had a "sister" Mary the wife of Clopus.

            What is this the Bob Newhart show? "Hi my name is Larry! This is my brother Darell and this is my other brother Darell!".

            This whole business Mary had other children is laughable on the face of it.

          • Jim the Scott

            @disqus_mfm0tDywva:disqus

            John P. Meier's "punchline" argument is specious. Since the Hebrew and Aramaic words for Brother and Sister have the broad meaning to include cousin as well as blood brother they can generically mean closely related extended family.

            That is, Jesus is, in effect, saying, "For whoever does the will of God is my very close male relative and very close female relative and mother.”

            Also Meier seems to forget there is no classic Hebrew word for cousin.

            In the OT the word used to refer to my relationship to my mother and father's other sons would be the same as the word used to refer to the sons of my Mother's brother etc.

            Thus my cousin Joseph is my "Brother" Joseph and my biological brother Michael is...well you get the idea in OT liguistics.

            NT Greek has a word for cousin but sometimes obvious cousins are still referred to as brethren. John 19 Our Lady "sister"(she is obviously a cousin) also named Mary for example. None of the Brothers and Sisters of Jesus are named children of Mary or Joseph. Also some of them are identified with other figures in the NT whose parentage is neither Joseph or Mary.

            How does Meier miss that? How can the punchline be weakened? Meier is reading modern english linguistic conventions into the 1st century Hebrew.

            It is just not convincing even if there are no gods.

          • David Nickol

            That is, Jesus is, in effect, saying, "For whoever does the will of God is my very close male relative and very close female relative and mother.”

            And ypu think your recasting of Matthew above is a better "punchline" than

            48 But he said in reply to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?”
            49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
            50 For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

            Remind me not to hire you as a speechwriter!

            Also Meier seems to forget there is no classic Hebrew word for cousin.

            Which is totally irrelevant, since the Gospels are in Greek.

            John 19 Our Lady "sister"(she is obviously a cousin) also named Mary for example.

            Note the verse and the footnote from the NABrev2e:

            John 19: 25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

            [19:25] It is not clear whether four women are meant, or three (i.e., Mary the wife of Cl[e]opas [cf. Lk 24:18] is in apposition with his mother’s sister) or two (his mother and his mother’s sister, i.e., Mary of Cl[e]opas and Mary of Magdala). Only John mentions the mother of Jesus here. The synoptics have a group of women looking on from a distance at the cross (Mk 15:40).

            You say:

            How does Meier miss that? How can the punchline be weakened? Meier is reading modern english linguistic conventions into the 1st century Hebrew.

            Again, Hebrew has nothing to do with it. And as best I recall, I didn't even quote Meier, I gave my own summary of what I understood him to be saying. I daresay you haven't read a word by Meier on this topic. So you are free to criticize what I say, but you can't do a detailed criticism of Meier until you have read his work.

            I think the consensus is that the perpetual virginity of Mary can neither be proved nor disproved biblically. Here is an exhaustive look at the current state of the debate by what I take to be a very reliable source.

          • Rob Abney

            From the article you linked to: The vast majority of the Fathers of the Church, supporting either the Epiphanian or the Jeromian hypothesis, belonged to the Greek culture and spoke Greek. Some of them were even close to the New Testament era in both time and culture. Yet they did not find it an obstacle to consider Jesus' adelphoi as his cousins, step-brothers or half-brothers. The tradition adopted that point of view--be it the Catholic one, the Orthodox one, or even the Reformation one (with Luther and Calvin)--until the nineteenth century, when Protestant biblical scholars started to question the consensus in the name of the historical-critical method of interpretation. Their views were widely adopted within the Protestant denominations, making of Mary's perpetual virginity one of the great markers of dissent.

            Can you or anyone point to who were these first Protestant biblical scholars who first questioned 1800 years of acceptance of Mary’s perpetual virginity? And why did so many Protestant denominations readily accept the novel position?

          • OMG

            Catholic.com offers OT examples where the word 'brother' referred to nephews, other kinsmen, and cousins.

            The Old Testament shows that “brother” had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as “fathers”) and who are not descended from you (your male descendants are your “sons”), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

            Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

            The terms “brothers,” “brother,” and “sister” did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

            I don't know if H. Paulus (1761-1851) denied Mary's perpetual virginity but he was one of the first to apply rationalist principles to Scripture; e.g., God didn't part the Red Sea but one of its narrow points became naturally low or dry. Paulus also suggested a natural resurrection with Jesus, not truly dead, only in a faint (How explain the soldier's lance to the side?) who revived in the cool of the tomb. (Who rolled away the stone?)

          • OMG

            At Catholic.com, on the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Trent Horn has:

            The first real debate about this took place … it was probably around the fourth or fifth centuries. There was a writer named Helvidius, and he wrote the view that Jesus’ brothers were actually his biological brothers born of Mary, that Mary had other children after Jesus, and he was vigorously refuted by St. Jerome on that matter.

          • Rob Abney

            The article that David Nickol linked to explained the history of the debate very well but it also seemed to indicate that Mary’s perpetual virginity was ultimately accepted for many centuries until the textual criticism technique was applied to biblical stories. Initially the technique was used to defend biblical stories but it seems to have since been utilized to attack Catholic beliefs, with the perpetual virginity being one of the first targets. I would like to know who first published in this area based upon textual criticism.

          • OMG

            Good question. Certainly most agree that the major Reform figures did not question or deny Mary's perpetual virginity. Particularly scathing is Calvin's opinion of those who did:

            "Certainly, no man will ever raise a question on this subject, except from curiosity; and no man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation." (~Commentary).

            Can modern science definitively prove a virgin state without negating the same? I vote to let the subject drop like a lead balloon. It is God's and Mary's intimate mystery, a fact veiled in time. If this difficulty alone leads to doubt in God or in Jesus, so be it.

          • Rob Abney

            I suspected that it was Protestants who used textual or historical criticism to undermine Catholic beliefs but then I read that one of the earliest critics was Bruno Bauer, a friend and close colleague of Karl Marx, both became avowed atheists of course.

          • OMG

            Interesting that it may have been Marx's friend Bauer.

          • Jim the Scott

            >And ypu think your recasting of Matthew above is a better "punchline" than....

            Do you think the punchline was conducted in English? Aramaic doesn't have a word for cousin. In OT culture my relatives Joseph and Michael are both my "Brothers". Even thought the former is the son of my Mother's older biological brother and the later is my Mother's biological son?

            Yer a close family member. Also Jesus being a Rabbi is clearly employing a little Middrash. People are telling his literally "Yer Mom and close relatives are here" and he is responding in puny sort of stylized response to teach a lesson and he is not being hyper literal or dissing his Mom and relatives.

            >Remind me not to hire you as a speechwriter!

            Yer ethnocentrism is showing bro. First century Aramaic speaking people not English.

            >Which is totally irrelevant, since the Gospels are in Greek.

            That is laughable. The conversation took place in Aramaic and the NT Greek does use the words Brother and Sister as a place holder for cousin even thought it sometimes uses the word cousin.

            >[19:25] It is not clear whether four women are meant, or three

            "Mary of Clopas" when compared to parallel passages in the NT seems to be the same as Mary mother of "James, son of Alphaeus.". Note this James is one of the four named "brothers" of Jesus. The other "brothers" can be identified with other individuals who don't have either BVM or Joseph as their parent. Opps!

            >Again, Hebrew has nothing to do with it.

            Which is absurd argument by special pleading.

            >I think the consensus is that the perpetual virginity of Mary can neither be proved nor disproved biblically.

            I would accept that since I don't give a fig about Sola Scriptura as you already know. But I would note the extra biblical evidence favors the perpetual Virginity both directly and indirectly.

            More later.

          • Jim the Scott

            David Nickol,

            I find the source you linked to VERY interesting. I like this bit...

            QUOTE"This plurality of interpretations has been made possible because of the ambiguity of the word "brother" (and "sister") in ancient Hebrew. This language, like Aramaic, does not distinguish between blood brother and cousin. In fact--and this point might not have been taken into sufficient consideration--the Hebrew word ah, in its literal meaning, applies to any close male relative of the same generation. Once someone belongs to this circle--whether as sibling, half-brother, step-brother or cousin--he is an ah. Within this circle defined by true family brotherhood, no further word distinction is made. For ancient Hebrew, one belongs either to the family in-group or not. John P. Meier , for instance, wrote that, in Matthew 13:50, "the final 'punch line' of Jesus carries full weight only if the mother, brothers, and sisters all have a close, natural relationship to Jesus." [John P. MEIER, "The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus in Ecumenical Perspective." Catholic Biblical Quarterly 54 (1992) 1-28, page 13.] In Meier's mind, it means that the "brothers and sisters" were Mary's children. Yet, what Jesus says there still carries full weight if the "brothers and sisters" were half-brothers or half-sisters of his, since such half-brothers and sisters would also belong to the closest family circle.

            It seems brothers(children of Mary since in Judaism you are considered a full brother if you share the same mother with someone even if you don't share the same Father) or half Brothers or cousins would apply. Meier's claim it must exclude cousins is specious. There is an eastern Tradition Joseph had Children before marrying Mary but the Popes largely discount it.

            I would also note according to the 2nd century Jewish Christian Hegesippus at least two of the four "Brothers" of Jesus Jude and James where OT Priests. That makes it impossible for them to be either Mary or Joseph's children.

            Priests come from the line of Levi via Aaron. Joseph and Mary are from the line of Judah threw David.

            You reject or at best are skeptical of the Virgin conception of Jesus but I think it would be a bigger miracle for two people from the Tribe of Judah to give birth to someone from Levi.

            Some might claim Mary remarried a Cohen/Priest after Joseph's death but that presents two problems. The OT law says a Priest may only marry a Virgin or the widow of another Priest. To make Hevidus' heresy possible you would still have to partially confess the perpetual virginity of Mary to make it work so she could marry a Priest. Why not just save a step and go the whole hog and admit she was a Virgin?

            So I remain unconvinced.

          • David Nickol

            [John P. MEIER, "The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus in Ecumenical Perspective." Catholic Biblical Quarterly 54 (1992) 1-28, page 13.] In Meier's mind, it means that the "brothers and sisters" were Mary's children.

            I just made a valiant attempt to read the actual paper by Meier cited above. (If you take advantage of free registration at JSTOR, you can read 100 articles per month through the end of this year.) The difference between the level of sophistication of what we do here on SN discussing these issues and that of a scholarly work such as Meier's paper is so vast that there is little I can reasonably do besides suggest we go back to school and get our PhD's in Biblical studies and do additional research for 20 or 30 years before taking up this issue again. That does not mean that Meier is right, of course, But it means his work is on an entirely different level than our attempts to employ it or refute it here.

            I thought Fr. Rossier's concluding paragraph was very interesting, especially coming from a priest of the Society of Mary:

            More promising, of course, is the reality that some Catholic and Protestant scholars, moved by ecumenical concerns, are now acknowledging the validity of the biblical foundation of the other denomination's traditional position concerning the identity of the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus mentioned in the New Testament. They are moving ahead on the way paved by the authors of Mary in the New Testament. Some Protestant theologians who still maintain that Mary probably had other children after Jesus' birth, are nonetheless ready to accept the notion of Mary's perpetual virginity. That is, they accept the theological significance of the perpetual virginity without postulating for it a physical reality. What is promising in all this is that Mary is little-by-little escaping from the yoke of being a stumbling block, a sign of division among the major Christian denominations.

            It seems clear that the perpetual virginity of Mary is quite another issue than the virginal conception of Jesus, and the former issue can neither be proven nor disproven biblically. For Catholics it is dogma, but more based on Tradition than scripture.

          • Jim the Scott

            Whatever disagreements or disputes I have ever had with you Sir Nickol I simply adore how you actually do yer homework. Well done.

            Two statement you write stand out to me.

            >It seems clear that the perpetual virginity of Mary is quite another issue than the virginal conception of Jesus, and the former issue can neither be proven nor disproven biblically. For Catholics it is dogma, but more based on Tradition than scripture.

            Yes. 100% in agreement. I have no problem with that since some things require Tradition. For example the list of what books belong in the NT is pure Tradition.

            >Some Protestant theologians who still maintain that Mary probably had other children after Jesus' birth, are nonetheless ready to accept the notion of Mary's perpetual virginity. That is, they accept the theological significance of the perpetual virginity without postulating for it a physical reality.

            I should note a subtle distinction that needs to be brought up here. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity in its minimal understanding (by some) mandates the Blessed Virgin never had sex and never bore any children other than Jesus. Many a Protestant(not all) has no problem with that.

            But there are early traditions that Her "physical virginity" that is her hymen somehow miraculously remained intact after giving birth to Jesus. Either because it miraculous heals or Our Lord somehow comes out without damaging it in some perternatual fashion. Also she gave birth without pain because She is exempt from the afflictions of Eve. (Thought I should note popular Tradition does tell us She finally does experience labor pain at the foot of the Cross in union with the suffering of Her Son and it is the basis for her being given the title Co-Redemptrix).

            Anyway others claim this part of the doctrine is infallible too and the case for it is very good contra the Mary Minimalists. I myself tend toward the minimalist school unless dogma mandates otherwise and as I said the case is strong.

            Anyway Biblical scholar Fr. William Most waxes eloquent on it.
            https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/marys-physical-virginity-in-the-birth-of-jesus-9798

            Cheer big guy. Sadly my replacement computer was a bust. So I have decided to give up gaming, act my age and got two Chromebooks. One for me and one for wife so we don't have to fight over the Computer and we can give my Son a break.

            Cheers again.

          • Luis

            "Sir Nickol I simply adore how you actually do yer homework. Well done".

            In a few words, you lost yet another debate.
            Time to practice some humility I guess.

            And yes, as the eloquent David explained on multiple occasions. The virgin birth was a mistranslation, and even if it has not been, there is no evidence Mary had a 'virgin birth'. Not only that, it would also be a complete exaggeration and nonsensical for God to need of Mary's virgin body to bring life to Christ, and then suddenly pull another miracle for Mary's personal parts to remain intact during birth. If that was so significant, wouldn't God have simply created Christ himself? And again, the virgin-birth aspect is only important to those same type of "Christians" that constantly hate on homosexuals, other religious groups, minorities, etcetera. Maybe Jim is one of those. Maybe Mark too, but I'm just not sure.

            It really does not matter, or does it?

          • Jim the Scott

            Except the Hebrew word can mean Virgin & is show to be used in the OT and in extra biblical writings to mean Virgin and the earliest pre-Christian translation of it into Greek is apparently Virgin thus claiming it is "mistranslated" is begging the question.

            Stick to finding the #12 and leave the rest to the grown ups wee lamb.

          • Luis

            The mistranslation I was referring to was Mary's "virgin" birth, as it was stated a couple times above.

            Yes, as much as I think you are an absolute fool, and definitely not the best representation of Christianity. I can still admit, reading through the back-and-forth above, the claim for Jesus' 'cousins, 'brothers' and 'sisters' as blood family-members is quite a strange take, and difficult one to prove. From my understanding, brothers and sisters were always terms used to describe kindness and love among all of us who are sons of God, and therefore share a common goal: One, which you dear Jim, seem to completely forget about while debating with others online.

            I actually agree with you here.
            Humble yourself. And consider repenting every once in a while.

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            Luke 24:44
            And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

            Psalm 69:8
            I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

          • Jim the Scott

            >The mistranslation I was referring to was Mary's "virgin" birth, as it was stated a couple times above.

            Sure pal. Awe wee lamb.

            >I actually agree with you here.

            Don't care. Potato.

          • Luis

            Thanks for proving my point.

          • Jim the Scott

            Cheese.

          • David Nickol

            I suppose this would then enable the RC scholar to maintain both academic integrity and church recognition at the same time, right?

            Right, but it would not necessarily be the case that they didn't sincerely believe the Bible, when looked at as a purely historical document, implied one thing and Tradition outweighed what the Bible seemed to imply.

            Interestingly, both the NEB (that is, the NEBrev2e) sometimes use a similar wording to that of my Jewish Study Bible when they note a Christian interpretation of an OT passage. They will both say something like, "The early Church saw in this XYZ." They do not affirm the truth of XYZ.

            It is an interesting question to what length (if any) biblical scholars should go to try to interpret the Bible to validate teachings of their denominations.

          • Jim the Scott

            >70% of Catholics don't believe in the real presence.

            The late great Fr. Benedict Groeschel once mentioned there was a survey that claimed 10% of Irish Atheists believed in the divinity of Christ.....funny that.

            What the ill informed or genuine heretics who call themselves Catholic believe is of little consequence.

        • Jim the Scott

          @disqus_mfm0tDywva:disqus

          Nope.

          >Neither the NAB nor the RSVCE uses "virgin" in the translation of Isaiah 7:14

          You sure about that Nickol?

          My NAB says Virgin in Isaiah 7:14? My RSVCE says Virgin too(but has a foot note b that says "or young woman".

          Anyway beg the question much? Is it a "mistranslation" or authentic interpretation?

          http://www.apologeticspress...

          Besides Isaiah 7:14, ‘almâ is used in Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8, Psalm 68:25, Proverbs 30:19, Song of Solomon 1:3 and 6:8. In an examination of the passages using the word ‘almâ, H.C. Leupold concluded that it “cannot be denied that such a one is to be classified as a virgin” (1988, 1:156)

          Clearly the Jewish scholars 200 years before the birht of Christ rendered it Virgin so that is the authentic interpretation.

          BTW if you got a reply from a Jim the Scott Other that just disappeared. That was a mistake. That was an alternate account I have. This morning tragedy struck my IMAC suffered a hard drive failure and I am dealing with the data loss.

          My Son's computer is a bit unwieldy & I used the wrong profile. My bad.

          Cheers..

          • David Nickol

            My NAB says Virgin in Isaiah 7:14? My RSVCE says Virgin too(but has a foot note b that says "or young woman".

            NABRev2e
            Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign;* the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.

            RSVCE
            Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman′u-el.

            If you want to wade through this, it shows the various changes to the RSV in order to create the two editions (who knew?) of the RSVCE and also changes made to the Ignatius Bible, which restored "virgin" to Isaiah 7:14.

            The question I have never seen answered is how the verses following 14 can be interpreted to refer to Jesus:

            Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign;* the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel. Curds and honey he will eat so that he may learn to reject evil and choose good; for before the child learns to reject evil and choose good, the land of those two kings whom you dread shall be deserted.

            Did the child Jesus need to learn to reject evil and choose good?

          • David Nickol

            Notes from the NABRev2e for tha above passages:

            * [7:14] Isaiah’s sign seeks to reassure Ahaz that he need not fear the invading armies of Syria and Israel in the light of God’s promise to David (2 Sm 7:12–16). The oracle follows a traditional announcement formula by which the birth and sometimes naming of a child is promised to particular individuals (Gn 16:11; Jgs 13:3). The young woman: Hebrew ‘almah designates a young woman of marriageable age without specific reference to virginity. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew term as parthenos, which normally does mean virgin, and this translation underlies Mt 1:23. Emmanuel: the name means “with us is God.” Since for the Christian the incarnation is the ultimate expression of God’s willingness to “be with us,” it is understandable that this text was interpreted to refer to the birth of Christ.

            * [7:15–16] Curds and honey: the only diet available to those who are left after the devastation of the land; cf. vv. 21–25.

          • OMG

            ...the Lord will give goodness: and our earth shall yield her fruit (Ps 84:13[85:12]).

            The Catechism explains Jesus' nature in Articles 410-483. As Jesus had two natures, He had both divine and human wills. God, in the person of Jesus, assumed the human nature in order to reveal himself to man.

            As a human, Jesus ate human food (signified by curds, honey). As a human with a human will, he had freedom to choose whether to follow the divine will. He was a man divided, just as man truly is. Scripture teaches that Satan tempted Jesus, and Jesus asked the Father to let the cup of suffering pass him. Those two Scriptural occurrences reveal the two wills of Christ and show his humanity together with the strength of divinity which allowed Him to be tempted, suffer, die, and resurrect as He did.

          • Jim the Scott

            Dude first before I say anything in case you haven't done it. I must say....as friend.....back up yer files bro! In the Cloud! In a new Flash drive, DVD ROM.... whatever because I kept putting off. Now it is too late.

            Don't make my mistake. I can get most of it back from other sources but the hassle.

            >If you want to wade through this, it shows the various changes to the RSV in order to create the two editions (who knew?) of the RSVCE and also changes made to the Ignatius Bible, which restored "virgin" to Isaiah 7:14.

            Yes and it is a good thing we Catholics are not Bible Alone people because we need the Church and Tradition to make sense of the minor textual variations and the interpretations. Like I said the Jewish Translators 200 years before Christ rendered the prophesy "Virgin" that is the authentic Tradition & interpretation.

            Also the popular translations for the plebs do differ from the academic. That is of little surprise to me.

            But even the footnote to the academic one you linked too says" Isaiah’s sign seeks to reassure Ahaz that he need not fear the invading armies of Syria and Israel in the light of God’s promise to David (2 Sm 7:12–16). The oracle follows a traditional announcement formula by which the birth and sometimes naming of a child is promised to particular individuals (Gn 16:11; Jgs 13:3). The young woman: Hebrew ‘almah designates a young woman of marriageable age without specific reference to virginity. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew term as parthenos, which normally does mean virgin, and this translation underlies Mt 1:23. Emmanuel: the name means “with us is God.” Since for the Christian the incarnation is the ultimate expression of God’s willingness to “be with us,” it is understandable that this text was interpreted to refer to the birth of Christ."END QUOTE

            The Targums and Jewish Tradition accepts both of these verses as being Messianic Prophecies.

            >The question I have never seen answered is how the verses following 14 can be interpreted to refer to Jesus:....etc....etc...learn to reject evil....etc..
            .....Did the child Jesus need to learn to reject evil and choose good?

            Well there are two ways off the top of my head you can come at that. One is to point out Jewish Prophetic Tradition saw the Messiah spoken of threw out the Torah & the rest of Holy Scripture even if a specific verse was talking about something or someone else. It was believed in terms of the Messiah a Prophecy is seen as referring to both something immediate and something in the future.

            What applies to the immediate doesn't always apply to the future(King David talking about his sins for example. Jesus never sins) and Rabbinic Tradition does teach Isaiah 7:14 is a Messianic Prophecy.

            A similar convention is seen in the Book of Revelation. Take for example the Anti-Christ/Beast figure& the number of his name. It is obviously in the immediate it is referring to Caesar Nero. The Gematria they use with the 666 being the number of his Name is derived from "Caeser Nero" in Hebrew or Greek (my memory is fuzzy & I am still grieving my IMAC) but some manuscripts say 616 which is the letters of Nero's name added in Latin(for those reading this not in the know. Letters in many languages are also symbols for numbers. Like the letter "X" being 10 and so forth. Thus words have numbers. But we see in the Fathers early on the Beast was also see as a foretelling of a future tyrant in league with the Devil during the end times of whom Nero was a prefiguring.

            The second way to look at this, off the top of my head, would be I see no reason given the teachings and premises of Chalcedonian dogmas and theology of the Incarnation why Jesus in His Human Nature couldn't "learn to reject evil and choose good."? Even if it was impossible given the Incarnation for Christ to ever choose evil even if he was not taught this as spoken by the prophesy never the less he could still learn it.

            Jesus in His human nature could learn Spanish. Even if as God in His Divine Nature He Knew Spanish before the language was even born. You will note from Aquinas and the earlier Fathers Christ in His Human nature had the power to acquire experiential knowledge.

            That was a Good question! I was getting bored. Thanks bro.

            PS protect yer Drive. MAC computers rarely give me trouble but when they do they are a hot mess like a drunkin Redhead in a black party dress who just took yer keys.

            Not that I would know anything about that. :D My girlfriends where nice girls but I know a guy......

            Cheers.

        • OMG

          Before Isaiah came Genesis. Genesis 3:15 states that Satan will war with the woman and with her seed (Hebrew "zera" refers to semen as well as to offspring).

          Women do not by nature generate semen. Hebrew society was historically patriarchal with lineage traced through men. "The woman" suggests one specific woman and an unusual, atypical, paradoxical generation.

          Satan will fight a war. His goal is to destroy Jesus and Mary, and their spiritual offspring. Satan's war is against God. Satan, God, Jesus are supernatural realities.

          God, as Love, embodies perfect virginity and perfect fecundity within Himself. From the beginning, He chose Mary, as 'the' woman, as his spouse, as his instrument. Only a natural birth would require a natural man. A supernatural fecundity requires supernatural virginity, and God told us so from the beginning.

          • Luis

            Absolutely nothing you stated here neglects David Nickols' factual statement regarding the erroneous translation around Mary's virgin-birth. Quoting and paraphrasing the same elements in a fancy manner does not add any actual value to your argument unless you actually have something valuable to refute his claim.

            There was no virgin birth.

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            You tabled: There was no virgin birth.

            There is no instance where it can be proved that 'almâ designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

            The fact of virginity is obvious in Gen 24:43 where 'almâ is used of one who was being sought as a bride for Isaac (the Akedah is a primitive variable to the Christ prophecy).

      • Luis

        You fail to understand that connections don't necessarily neglect Christ, or the bible. I don't think the discussion should be whether Christianity was directly influenced by other religions, but rather to simply analyze these connections with a cold head.

        The problem in this article to begin with, is the author attempting to neglect and undermine real connections that are undeniable if we judge them by historical data. Not only that, but many of the similarities between Horus and Jesus (which the author of this article neglects) are still within the realm of possibility when you study the mythology behind both Isis and Horus. Isis, the goddess of fertility, magic, and rebirth. It is not irrational to assume Isis could have been a virgin. It is also not irrational to assume it could have happened before the virgin Mary.

        Undermining Plato's incredible impact in our world and way of thinking is also not the most intelligent comeback to Ficino's argumentation. If you neglect the importance that genius philosophers had not only in the Greek world, but also in our current world, then I have very little to discuss here with you. It is almost like arguing that the Ur-Nammu law code was not impactful to society and a pioneer for modern-day governing.

        If we all wanted to be as extremist and incoherent as you, we would simply make the argument that all of these religions and mythologies are untrue until proven otherwise. All we have regarding the supernatural is anecdotal evidence and nothing more, and that includes the bible.

        Die by your own sword.

        • Philip Rand

          Luis

          The BIG anomaly in the thesis is that Horus is a created being and Christ is not.

          • Luis

            True.

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            Your Horus model is interesting and most revealing.

            What is particularly interesting is Horus is a type of pseudo-Christ; for example his loss of a single eye and it's replacement with a snake, this is a particularly interesting anti-similitude.

          • Luis

            A type of "Pseudo-Christ" is actually an interesting way to interpret it.

            There are so many similarities that is is not only undeniable, but also bizarre. I'm sure many other religions, gods and goddesses may have many (and even stronger) similarities to Jesus Christ and his teachings. Nonetheless, the impact with Horus similarities (and clearly depicted by this written article and multiple others you can find online) is that the Horus myth came before. So easy to say it scares the crap out of Christians and pastors. The fear comes from lack of understanding in my humble opinion, it comes from lack of concrete and complete knowledge.

            What we do know, is very limited, and most, comes from anecdotal evidence.

          • Philip Rand

            Luis

            Pseudo-similarities is the ONLY way to measure Horus functional structure.

            It is the differences between Horus and Christ that quantify the intention of Horus.

            Horus is the Eye in the Sky , the Great Architect of the Universe, the Prince of the Power of the Air... his name is Legion.

    • Johannes Hui

      Regardless whether or not Jesus’ virgin birth happened, as long as Jesus’ bodily resurrection happened (it is strongly supported by abductive reasoning base on the available data), that would be enough to establish that Jesus is the best window through which we can see God (while the existence of God is proven via various deductive proofs).

      So even if the virgin birth narratives were a result of imitation or creative imagination instead of having any basis in history, it does not affect the status of Jesus’ movement established by the event of bodily resurrection.